how well will this motherboards dac/amp run the hd 600's?

[Corruption]

http://us.msi.com/product/mb/Z97-GAMING-7.html#hero-overview

[ShearMe]

just fine buddy

[RazrLeaf]

The beauty of HD 600s is that they'll run decently on anything decent, and scale pretty well as you upgrade and provide them with more power.

[ShearMe]

more power

You are a funny dude.

[RazrLeaf]

You are a funny dude.

:huh:

[ShearMe]

:huh:

Can you explain how more power improves a headphone's performance?

[RazrLeaf]

Can you explain how more power improves a headphone's performance?

Would you like the subjective or the objective? My original intention is to say that they'll scale well with higher quality amps.

[ShearMe]

Would you like the subjective or the objective?

Objective, obviously. Only reasonable argument for subjective is more volume which would go against your original statement of the soundcard being fine.

[RazrLeaf]

Objective, obviously. Only reasonable argument for subjective is more volume which would go against your original statement of the soundcard being fine.

Based on your response to another one of my posts in another thread, I don't feel like it would be beneficial to discuss this with you, as I don't believe an attempt to explain my opinion and perspective to you is worth my time.

[creatip123]

You are a funny dude.

 

It's true tho, it will scale up with more power. What will? Loudness of course....

 

*I'm guessing it will give off around 120dB before it pops?

[RazrLeaf]

Sorry I phrased my thought poorly, but as I said earlier, HD 600 headphones will offer improved performance as you improve the source driving it. Different amplifiers handle the resonances of headphone transducers differently and are able to provide different amounts of control.

[SSL]

Sorry I phrased my thought poorly, but as I said earlier, HD 600 headphones will offer improved performance as you improve the source driving it. Different amplifiers handle the resonances of headphone transducers differently and are able to provide different amounts of control.

 

Control is provided by low output impedance, not power. It is amazing how many people subscribe to this misconception.

 

Let me repeat that: control is a function of damping factor, not power.

 

Given that the HD 600 have nominal 300 ohm impedance, just about any source these days will have low enough output impedance to control the driver.

 

The only thing that will happen when a headphone is driven by a progressively more powerful source is more volume. After a certain point, more volume becomes useless or dangerous.

 

It's true tho, it will scale up with more power. What will? Loudness of course....

 

*I'm guessing it will give off around 120dB before it pops?

 

They can handle 200mW, less than 115dB.

[Oddball]

Control is provided by low output impedance, not power. It is amazing how many people subscribe to this misconception.

 

Let me repeat that: control is a function of damping factor, not power.

 

Given that the HD 600 have nominal 300 ohm impedance, just about any source these days will have low enough output impedance to control the driver.

 

The only thing that will happen when a headphone is driven by a progressively more powerful source is more volume. After a certain point, more volume becomes useless or dangerous.

 

 

They can handle 200mW, less than 115dB.

 

 

Note that it has a very high peak at 100 hz. So while an amp might have enough voltage swing at 10 hz or 1000 hz, at that 100 hz mark it won't have the voltage swing, (aka voltage gain) to get the peak power out of the headphones at 100 hz, leaving other frequencies just as loud but 100 hz is rolled off. 

 

Power is voltage * current. Increasing one or the other increases power. Its very possible for an amp to be able to drive 16 ohms just fine (lots of current, seen in emitter follower designs) but not have the voltage swing to power something in the 600 ohm range. The inverse is also possible where an amp has a high voltage gain but low current gain and can drive 600 ohms all day but will not have the amperage capability to drive anything down to 16 ohms. These two amps could have the same power rating because of P=VI where P is power V is voltage and I is current.

 

Low output impedance is a very nice thing to have but its not the only thing to have. You could have practically zero output impedance and still have shitty sounding music due to headphone impedance changes vs frequency.

 

More power, be it more voltage gain or current gain is always good. It means the amp always has enough balls to drive low impedance loads and enough voltage to drive high impedance loads.

 

The reason headphones have different impedance at different frequencies is because headphones, and any loud speaker has resistance and reactance. That is, it has some capacitance and inductance which are very dependent on frequency. 

[SSL]

Note that it has a very high peak at 100 hz. So while an amp might have enough voltage swing at 10 hz or 1000 hz, at that 100 hz mark it won't have the voltage swing, (aka voltage gain) to get the peak power out of the headphones at 100 hz, leaving other frequencies just as loud but 100 hz is rolled off.

 

Do you actually know any of this for a fact, or did you just make it up? People are always "helpfully" pointing out the fact that yes, dynamic drivers often have an impedance peak. And people are always completely misunderstanding why it's there and what implications it has for transducer - amplifier interaction.

 

A point about terminology - you can't "roll off" a frequency that isn't at an extreme end of the range. You can have rolled off highs or lows. Anything else is a dip or cut.

 

Now, if that impedance peak (which, by the way, is caused by the resonant frequency of the driver) was actually where the driver was most difficult to power, then it would be expected for frequency response to approximately follow an inverse of the impedance curve. This isn't the case because sensitivity isn't constant with frequency, either. Frequency response also doesn't change with the amount of power; if it did, then just turning down the volume pot on an amp would be enough to do so. Obviously not the case.

 

Note the phase angle in the graph above - the higher the phase angle, the more difficult the load is to power properly. A positive angle indicates inductance, a negative angle capacitance as you mentioned, but note that the angle is zero at the peak - this means that the load here is purely resistive and thus easy to drive. I'd make an analogy about swinging a pendulum but honestly I can't be bothered.

 

However, control is another matter. As I said before, damping factor is what determines control. A low damping factor is detrimental to control and thus sound quality, usually in unpredictable ways. But the resonant frequency is usually the most susceptible because that is where the driver is most difficult to control. Power has a minimal effect on control, compared to the damping factor. At non-zero phase angles, the transducer is essentially generating voltage with the amp as the load. A low output impedance allows the amp to dissipate the generated electrical potential and thus control the transducer properly.

[Oddball]

Do you actually know any of this for a fact, or did you just make it up? People are always "helpfully" pointing out the fact that yes, dynamic drivers often have an impedance peak. And people are always completely misunderstanding why it's there and what implications it has for transducer - amplifier interaction.

 

A point about terminology - you can't "roll off" a frequency that isn't at an extreme end of the range. You can have rolled off highs or lows. Anything else is a dip or cut.

 

Now, if that impedance peak (which, by the way, is caused by the resonant frequency of the driver) was actually where the driver was most difficult to power, then it would be expected for frequency response to approximately follow an inverse of the impedance curve. This isn't the case because sensitivity isn't constant with frequency, either. Frequency response also doesn't change with the amount of power; if it did, then just turning down the volume pot on an amp would be enough to do so. Obviously not the case.

 

Note the phase angle in the graph above - the higher the phase angle, the more difficult the load is to power properly. A positive angle indicates inductance, a negative angle capacitance as you mentioned, but note that the angle is zero at the peak - this means that the load here is purely resistive and thus easy to drive. I'd make an analogy about swinging a pendulum but honestly I can't be bothered.

 

However, control is another matter. As I said before, damping factor is what determines control. A low damping factor is detrimental to control and thus sound quality, usually in unpredictable ways. But the resonant frequency is usually the most susceptible because that is where the driver is most difficult to control. Power has a minimal effect on control, compared to the damping factor. At non-zero phase angles, the transducer is essentially generating voltage with the amp as the load. A low output impedance allows the amp to dissipate the generated electrical potential and thus control the transducer properly.

Not arguing that low output impedance is good for damping factor. Perhaps rolled off is the wrong term but you get the idea. Also its general electrical engineering 101 what I stated above, low impedance needs high current, high impedance needs high voltage for the same power disipation at the load.

[SSL]

Not arguing that low output impedance is good for damping factor. Perhaps rolled off is the wrong term but you get the idea. Also its general electrical engineering 101 what I stated above, low impedance needs high current, high impedance needs high voltage for the same power disipation at the load.

 

Of course it is. But using this basic fact to make a point about how an impedance peak at the resonant frequency results in a a dip in output intensity with a less powerful source is an incorrect application of the science.

 

I don't mind being corrected and educated, but also don't appreciate having a bunch of facts thrown in my face if the person doing it doesn't actually understand their implications.

 

[ShearMe]

Based on your response to another one of my posts in another thread, I don't feel like it would be beneficial to discuss this with you, as I don't believe an attempt to explain my opinion and perspective to you is worth my time.

 

Q.Q Dude, that was a joke. I'm sorry if I came off as offensive.

 

I'm not here to rag on you or your opinions or your perspective, but we simply don't appreciate Head-Fi's Lingo around here. It tends to mislead newbies to the audiofeels who then end up pissing away money chasing the definitions of the cryptic Head-Fi language. I'd rather them spend wisely and enjoy their media.

[creatip123]

However, control is another matter. As I said before, damping factor is what determines control. A low damping factor is detrimental to control and thus sound quality, usually in unpredictable ways. 

 

This kinda reminds me of something in the other topic. I went and tried adding 25ohms extra load/output impedance to my 35ohms headphone. The sound was definitely positively different, like a whole different headphone altogether. Kinda funny experiment. 

 

Q.Q Dude, that was a joke. I'm sorry if I came off as offensive.

 

I'm not here to rag on you or your opinions or your perspective, but we simply don't appreciate Head-Fi's Lingo around here. It tends to mislead newbies to the audiofeels who then end up pissing away money chasing the definitions of the cryptic Head-Fi language. I'd rather them spend wisely and enjoy their media.

 

But...but...all that boominess and details and hi-fi-ness and 3D separations....

[RazrLeaf]

Q.Q Dude, that was a joke. I'm sorry if I came off as offensive.

 

I'm not here to rag on you or your opinions or your perspective, but we simply don't appreciate Head-Fi's Lingo around here. It tends to mislead newbies to the audiofeels who then end up pissing away money chasing the definitions of the cryptic Head-Fi language. I'd rather them spend wisely and enjoy their media.

Oh. My bad then. What I was linking was a chapter from Jason Stoddard's (Schiit's founder) 46 (and counting) chapter account of how Schiit came to be. But I do see your point. However, I will say that it's one of the better places to find people who have multiple headphones and can offer comparisons between the 2. It has it's helpful people, but it also has it's snake oil.

[RazrLeaf]

Control is provided by low output impedance, not power. It is amazing how many people subscribe to this misconception.

I don't subscribe to the misconception, I just used the wrong word (I feel bad for sparking this discussion now). It was before I'd had my coffee. And it so happens that many of the amps that offer better control are also capable of delivering more power.

[creatip123]

I don't subscribe to the misconception, I just used the wrong word (I feel bad for sparking this discussion now). It was before I'd had my coffee. And it so happens that many of the amps that offer better control are also capable of delivering more power.

 

Well, there are bad amps and good amps. The main differences are usually the internal circuitry designs, and the quality of components used. 

 

Power is not something un-important. It's very important. Driving a headphone that (for example) needs an average of 100mW of power with an amp that got max power of 10mW will not sound good, at all.

 

It's just the issue of 'power' is kinda overhyped. People are kinda like, already have an amp with 300mW output rating, driving a headphone that will run well with 100mW, and still screaming for 'more power'....