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Dota 2's "oversaturation"

Sushicat89

So some days ago pro players in the dota scene started complaining about how there are too many tournaments whilst others think it's their fault for participating in all of them. Players like Eternalenvy (http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92 the blog post is important) have released some of their thoughts and complaints on how too much tournaments can affect them. Some other opposes this point of view like Thooorin and IXmike.

 

 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2MJhylXKA)

 

 

Unlike LoL, pretty much anyone is free to host a tournament and make any top teams compete in it thanks to their ticket, in-game spectating system and the way Valve are. Basically, Valve, other than the International(Equivalent of LoL world championship), doesn't manage any leagues. This leads to having as many as 5 tournaments in a single month and an insane amount of online matches that have to be done in order to qualify to a Lan event(some teams might play more than 3 matches a day, Sometimes Bo3s). 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

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Its their job. They get payed to play. Maybe if they think its too much they should look at a different career haha My 2 cents.. On that note Im gonna watch thorins video. I'm subbed but mainly watch his cs stuff.

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I think games thrive more when it isn't up to the game's developer to manage every pro league. Remember that some of these companies do more than just their Moba game. Valve has things other than Dota 2 to deal with. They should host a major tournament and season while the game is at the forefront, but the esport will last long after Valve moves on if other hosts can set up tournaments with ease.

 

I hope Hi-Rez can make this happen with Smite, since they consistently make good game, but they seem to have trouble keeping them alive for long (Tribes:Ascend RIP in Peace).

Git Gud.

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This same thing has been talked in several eSports talkshows (SC2 State of the Game. The GD Show etc.). Their opinion is that players in worlds top levels shouldn't play in lower tier tournaments even though it would be easy money. And same thing goes for spectators. When each weekend there can be 2-3 major tournaments going on, LANs and quick cups with them. Which ones you watch?

 

My opinion is that it would be better for tournament organizers to found some head org, maybe include Valve as expert, and make some better tier system. Tie it to pricepool and have only teams that are in certain level to enter. Lower tier teams could have online quals to get in the bigger circles and teams doing badly in couple tournaments in row would be knock down. The major tournaments should make clear schedule how leagues or LAN events are run so there wouldn't be collision between two majors in same time.

 

The fight for spectators would still be there but hey! It would be like any other real sport. I mean in soccer there are some major leagues (in UK and Germany + UEFA) while each country has couple lower leagues for their own teams. Same with hockey and basketball. In the end this will come to point where Valve or big leagues have to start paying teams and players salary for participation. Or have them take part in sponsor money.

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Thorin made a brilliant video about this 

 

its a pretty well informed and interesting opinion

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Thorin made a brilliant video about this 

 

its a pretty well informed and interesting opinion

Yes i linked this video,  my link keeps redirecting to this forum post thought :/

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I personally think, and that is strictly from a spectator's point of view, that there are indeed too many tournaments. Sometimes having as much as 10+ games a week from my favorite team simply decreases my interest toward these matches. Even team themselves don't seem to try as much during these matches and  it is not very entertaining. Trying to follow all the different schedules is a bit confusing. But that's purely from a spectator's point of view. Now one of the main complaints of the top tier pro players are simply "shit tournaments". Horrible management, horrible PCs, no translators, organizations NOT paying etc Things that RIOT, in the case of League of Legends, would easily take care of. I think I never saw an LCS match where they had to pause it for more than 30 minutes several time, watching ESL NY and the summit was sometimes painful. Many tournaments organizer just seem to jump on the dota tournament train without actually thinking about the players. Simple things such as match schedules are totally messed up showing a total lack a communication from the different organizations between them. One may argue that this can easily be fixed by having Valve getting involved or at least make them communicate more. Now as a result of Valve and most tournament organizers inaction, some players thought that having a team union/associtation would be a good idea, which would basically be to agree on going on a specific tournaments and not going to another making some shady tournaments lose credibility by lacking the top tier teams like EG, C9, secret, etc  I personally think having valve implement an LCS style league would solve most problems plus players would have a consistent income even if they're not performing too well. A consistent revenue plus the huge price pool the international offers would definitely be easier for the players,  less traveling, not needing to deal with people speaking a different language and more. Now again, as a spectator, having less tournaments but having an LCS style league would make not only us, dota players, regain interest in the matches, but would probably, i think, make other people come and watch us. Production value would probably increase and get on par or better with those from the LCSs and other RIOT managed events. 

Of course, transitioning to something as different as a league isn't that easy, killing the free market valve is offering right now isn't that easy. Let's start with the small things such as player unions. Again some people think they're selfish then these players think there're too many tournaments. Players like meracle or IXmike expressed how they should be happy and that 10 years ago people would sleep on the floor to win 1000$(Maelk). Most of these statements are coming  from tier 2 and/or teams with less exposure while top players agree on having less tournaments. I personally think you should always work toward having something better, having better conditions. People "that would do anything to get in a tournament" just aren't living the life top players are living. Most of them simply don't have 5 lan finals in a single month and they don't understand what they're living, though I understand how the tier 2 players feel. There reality is simply too different but some of they still think is it isn't because of the "professional player" tag. 

Anyway that is my 2cents, there's probably many mistakes, english is my 4th language

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So some days ago pro players in the dota scene started complaining about how there are too many tournaments whilst others think it's their fault for participating in all of them. Players like Eternalenvy (http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92 the blog post is important) have released some of their thoughts and complaints on how too much tournaments can affect them. Some other opposes this point of view like Thooorin and IXmike.

 

 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2MJhylXKA)

 

 

Unlike LoL, pretty much anyone is free to host a tournament and make any top teams compete in it thanks to their ticket, in-game spectating system and the way Valve are. Basically, Valve, other than the International(Equivalent of LoL world championship), doesn't manage any leagues. This leads to having as many as 5 tournaments in a single month and an insane amount of online matches that have to be done in order to qualify to a Lan event(some teams might play more than 3 matches a day, Sometimes Bo3s). 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

 

I am a big EE hater, and c9 hater just cause he is on the team.  Now, that's out of way.  RTZ made some valid points in his post without

 

So some days ago pro players in the dota scene started complaining about how there are too many tournaments whilst others think it's their fault for participating in all of them. Players like Eternalenvy (http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92 the blog post is important) have released some of their thoughts and complaints on how too much tournaments can affect them. Some other opposes this point of view like Thooorin and IXmike.

 

 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2MJhylXKA)

 

 

Unlike LoL, pretty much anyone is free to host a tournament and make any top teams compete in it thanks to their ticket, in-game spectating system and the way Valve are. Basically, Valve, other than the International(Equivalent of LoL world championship), doesn't manage any leagues. This leads to having as many as 5 tournaments in a single month and an insane amount of online matches that have to be done in order to qualify to a Lan event(some teams might play more than 3 matches a day, Sometimes Bo3s). 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

Oh. man don't link EE lol...  Give anti-dota people a real reason to hate us.

 

RTZ made valid points in his follow up.

 

 

I agree, too many tournaments and valve needs to somehow and step in or create another company for managing DOTA 2 pro scene.  There is starting to be a crazy ammount of gambling on games (nothing like soccer, tennis, etc) but it's only going to keep growing.

 

Anyways, until there is a real solution to DDOS, the most simplistic attack known (yet effective and does the job).. I think should be the #1 priority.  Not just for valve, for all major parties.

 

You never know with Valve.  They play everything close to to the chest, who know what Lord Gaben will do next, besides make $$

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So some days ago pro players in the dota scene started complaining about how there are too many tournaments whilst others think it's their fault for participating in all of them. Players like Eternalenvy (http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92 the blog post is important) have released some of their thoughts and complaints on how too much tournaments can affect them. Some other opposes this point of view like Thooorin and IXmike.

 

 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2MJhylXKA)

 

 

Unlike LoL, pretty much anyone is free to host a tournament and make any top teams compete in it thanks to their ticket, in-game spectating system and the way Valve are. Basically, Valve, other than the International(Equivalent of LoL world championship), doesn't manage any leagues. This leads to having as many as 5 tournaments in a single month and an insane amount of online matches that have to be done in order to qualify to a Lan event(some teams might play more than 3 matches a day, Sometimes Bo3s). 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

 

 

I am a big EE hater, and c9 hater just cause he is on the team.  Now, that's out of way.  RTZ made some valid points in his post without

 

So some days ago pro players in the dota scene started complaining about how there are too many tournaments whilst others think it's their fault for participating in all of them. Players like Eternalenvy (http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/473477-my-perspective-on-%EF%BC%A4%EF%BD%8F%EF%BD%94%EF%BC%A1%EF%BC%92 the blog post is important) have released some of their thoughts and complaints on how too much tournaments can affect them. Some other opposes this point of view like Thooorin and IXmike.

 

 

(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv2MJhylXKA)

 

 

Unlike LoL, pretty much anyone is free to host a tournament and make any top teams compete in it thanks to their ticket, in-game spectating system and the way Valve are. Basically, Valve, other than the International(Equivalent of LoL world championship), doesn't manage any leagues. This leads to having as many as 5 tournaments in a single month and an insane amount of online matches that have to be done in order to qualify to a Lan event(some teams might play more than 3 matches a day, Sometimes Bo3s). 

 

What are your thoughts on this? 

Oh. man don't link EE lol...  Give anti-dota people a real reason to hate us.

 

RTZ made valid points in his follow up.

 

 

I agree, too many tournaments and valve needs to somehow and step in or create another company for managing DOTA 2 pro scene.  There is starting to be a crazy ammount of gambling on games (nothing like soccer, tennis, etc) but it's only going to keep growing.

 

Anyways, until there is a real solution to DDOS, the most simplistic attack known (yet effective and does the job).. I think should be the #1 priority.  Not just for valve, for all major parties.

 

You never know with Valve.  They play everything close to to the chest, who know what Lord Gaben will do next, besides make $$

 

Even if you don't like EE, I still think he made some valid points in his blog post, from a perspective of a proplayer that is, atm, DDOS is indeed the biggest problem

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Even if you don't like EE, I still think he made some valid points in his blog post, from a perspective of a proplayer that is, atm, DDOS is indeed the biggest problem

 

I personally think, and that is strictly from a spectator's point of view, that there are indeed too many tournaments. Sometimes having as much as 10+ games a week from my favorite team simply decreases my interest toward these matches. Even team themselves don't seem to try as much during these matches and  it is not very entertaining. Trying to follow all the different schedules is a bit confusing. But that's purely from a spectator's point of view. Now one of the main complaints of the top tier pro players are simply "shit tournaments". Horrible management, horrible PCs, no translators, organizations NOT paying etc Things that RIOT, in the case of League of Legends, would easily take care of. I think I never saw an LCS match where they had to pause it for more than 30 minutes several time, watching ESL NY and the summit was sometimes painful. Many tournaments organizer just seem to jump on the dota tournament train without actually thinking about the players. Simple things such as match schedules are totally messed up showing a total lack a communication from the different organizations between them. One may argue that this can easily be fixed by having Valve getting involved or at least make them communicate more. Now as a result of Valve and most tournament organizers inaction, some players thought that having a team union/associtation would be a good idea, which would basically be to agree on going on a specific tournaments and not going to another making some shady tournaments lose credibility by lacking the top tier teams like EG, C9, secret, etc  I personally think having valve implement an LCS style league would solve most problems plus players would have a consistent income even if they're not performing too well. A consistent revenue plus the huge price pool the international offers would definitely be easier for the players,  less traveling, not needing to deal with people speaking a different language and more. Now again, as a spectator, having less tournaments but having an LCS style league would make not only us, dota players, regain interest in the matches, but would probably, i think, make other people come and watch us. Production value would probably increase and get on par or better with those from the LCSs and other RIOT managed events. 

Of course, transitioning to something as different as a league isn't that easy, killing the free market valve is offering right now isn't that easy. Let's start with the small things such as player unions. Again some people think they're selfish then these players think there're too many tournaments. Players like meracle or IXmike expressed how they should be happy and that 10 years ago people would sleep on the floor to win 1000$(Maelk). Most of these statements are coming  from tier 2 and/or teams with less exposure while top players agree on having less tournaments. I personally think you should always work toward having something better, having better conditions. People "that would do anything to get in a tournament" just aren't living the life top players are living. Most of them simply don't have 5 lan finals in a single month and they don't understand what they're living, though I understand how the tier 2 players feel. There reality is simply too different but some of they still think is it isn't because of the "professional player" tag. 

Anyway that is my 2cents, there's probably many mistakes, english is my 4th language

the problem is not too many tournaments. lets have lots of tournaments but as thorin said, only the big teams go to the big tournaments, there is no reason why other tournaments with decent prize money cannot be for amateur teams to gain recognition.The event organisers need to have BIG cash prize tournaments and smaller prize tournaments. and the individual orgs need to agree with players which to attend. dont remove money from an esport scene. I dont know much about DoTa as i follow league of legends and prefer the game, but in any esport more money is better obviously.

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the problem is not too many tournaments. lets have lots of tournaments but as thorin said, only the big teams go to the big tournaments, there is no reason why other tournaments with decent prize money cannot be for amateur teams to gain recognition.The event organisers need to have BIG cash prize tournaments and smaller prize tournaments. and the individual orgs need to agree with players which to attend. dont remove money from an esport scene. I dont know much about DoTa as i follow league of legends and prefer the game, but in any esport more money is better obviously.

Like I said, from a spectator's point of view, there is too much and there's no hyper at all. And only going to "big tournaments" isn't that easy. Teams participate in many tournaments also to have a consistent income. Say a team goes to only one tournament each month but fails to get a share of the prize pool, it's pretty shitty and not all organizations will give their players a salary. That's why, for them, going in more tournaments, even though it might be frustrating and tiring they have to do it  and deal with shitty organizers. Having less tournaments, in a certain time lapse would definitely increase the interest people would give to this tournament and increase the ticket sales. Or at least having a bit of communication between the organizers to not end up having 3 lan finals + online group stages in a single week. Even not having long ass online qualifiers would solve a lot of things. IMO i just think the LCS system is better. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

This same thing has been talked in several eSports talkshows (SC2 State of the Game. The GD Show etc.). Their opinion is that players in worlds top levels shouldn't play in lower tier tournaments even though it would be easy money. And same thing goes for spectators. When each weekend there can be 2-3 major tournaments going on, LANs and quick cups with them. Which ones you watch?

 

Then Blizzard introduced the somewhat controversial WCS system.

 

I think there are definitely times where I want to watch say, Dreamhack and IEM simultaneously. However having multiple tournaments can also mean I can always watch matches that interest me. I can usually skip out on PvP matches. 

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Need more topics about Dota 2 like this.

I would drown to dead with the amount of tournaments that top teams have to participate as of now; Remember back in the early days when joinDota running The Defense.

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I think this has become a bigger problem lately with more and more teams becoming 'international' teams.  This makes online events much harder and forces the bigger international teams to go to LANs, which cost money, time, and sleep.  I'm not too sure if League has a similar problem though.

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Ideally you'd enter a few across the year and then use the rest of the time for training, personal promotion, and marketing. There's no point in burning yourself out. Especially when everyone already knows you and you're not hurting for the cash.

 
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