A Guide to Buying the Right Mouse

[atavax]

Most of Razer's mice use laser sensors. Their deathadder is one of the few that use optical. But every pro cs go player i'm aware of uses optical. So randomly every mouse sponsor decides to force their players to use optical sensors according to your theory? I know Logitech has stated they don't ask their players to use any specific mouse, they let them choose between their lineup. I agree that sensor isn't everything and there are many factors that can go into the decision of what mouse they choose. But if laser or doesn't doesn't make a difference in competitive play, there should be a good amount of cs go players use laser sensors, and there aren't. What are the chances of only mice with optical sensors by chance being the most comfortable to use for every pro cs go player? Laser sensors aren't rare. ANd high dpi is such a non factor its so easy to interpolate high dpis suitable for any setup, the deathadder chroma for example uses the same optical sensor as the 2013 deathadder. the 2013 deathadder has a max dpi of 6400, the chroma has one of 10,000. Exact same optical sensor. High dpi is 100% marketing gimmick. You can simulate high dpi even if your mouse doesn't do it for you.

 

Yep, and mechanical keyboards predate membrane keyboards, so clearly membrane keyboards are better, higher end, right? They're using newer technology that is going to make mechanical keyboards obsolete, right?

 

People get impressed because "Laserbeams" means marketing teams know they can charge more for mice where they can advertise "LASERBEAMS" means greedy, evil corporations slap laserbeams on their product and up what they charge for it.

[Timmy-P]

Buy G502. Done.

Or another decent mouse, the G502 isn't everything.

[Jerakl]

Or another decent mouse, the G502 isn't everything.

Don't lie to me.

 

 

JK. I know there are other good mice out there. G502 is one of the best though.

[STRMfrmXMN]

most people game on a single monitor. Most of Razer's mice use laser sensors. Their deathadder is one of the few that use optical. But every pro cs go player i'm aware of uses optical. So randomly every mouse sponsor decides to force their players to use optical sensors according to your theory? I know Logitech has stated they don't ask their players to use any specific mouse, they let them choose between their lineup. I agree that sensor isn't everything and there are many factors that can go into the decision of what mouse they choose.

 

Yep, and mechanical keyboards predate membrane keyboards, so clearly membrane keyboards are better, right? Your argument is so fail.

First part - of the sponsors allow the gamers to choose whatever they want then fine, they can do so. Most of the time it's based on grip and hand size and sensor should (hopefully) not come first.

 

And rubber dome is used by most people who game anyways (price). Plenty of people genuinely enjoy using membrane keyboards for whatever they do. And the "newer is better" logic only applies to these sensors. Not once did I bring up keyboards. These are totally different things. If older were better then by your logic then using a trackball mouse is the only way forward now, isn't it...  No, of course not. 

 

I think you should re-read the original post however. I said that the tracking differences between the two were negligible. I said that someone who plays FPS games will probably prefer an optical mouse. I said that not all laser sensors are created equal. I can't seem to find something to dissatisfy you with here (except for the thing with LED/Optical which is true, although I label it how it is as manufacturers do this and people buying a mouse should know this sort of information).

 

And I'll say it again - *you* have a preference. Other people have a preference. Do I prefer optical mice or laser mice? I can't tell the difference in tracking as Windows allows easy tweaking for tracking speed and accuracy. So I do not have a preference. If you have one, great. Find a mouse that satisfies your sensor preference. I'll continue buying mice in the future that suit my budget, hand size and grip first. I'll buy either a laser or optical mouse knowing that the difference between them, for me, won't matter. 

 

And laser mice still beat optical when it comes to wireless because of power consumption. Not everybody uses wireless mice but it's something to point out that optical just does not beat laser at.

[atavax]

First part - of the sponsors allow the gamers to choose whatever they want then fine, they can do so. Most of the time it's based on grip and hand size and sensor should (hopefully) not come first.

 

And rubber dome is used by most people who game anyways (price). Plenty of people genuinely enjoy using membrane keyboards for whatever they do. And the "newer is better" logic only applies to these sensors. Not once did I bring up keyboards. These are totally different things. If older were better then by your logic then using a trackball mouse is the only way forward now, isn't it...  No, of course not. 

 

I think you should re-read the original post however. I said that the tracking differences between the two were negligible. I said that someone who plays FPS games will probably prefer an optical mouse. I said that not all laser sensors are created equal. I can't seem to find something to dissatisfy you with here (except for the thing with LED/Optical which is true, although I label it how it is as manufacturers do this and people buying a mouse should know this sort of information).

 

And I'll say it again - *you* have a preference. Other people have a preference. Do I prefer optical mice or laser mice? I can't tell the difference in tracking as Windows allows easy tweaking for tracking speed and accuracy. So I do not have a preference. If you have one, great. Find a mouse that satisfies your sensor preference. I'll continue buying mice in the future that suit my budget, hand size and grip first. I'll buy either a laser or optical mouse knowing that the difference between them, for me, won't matter. 

 

And laser mice still beat optical when it comes to wireless because of power consumption. Not everybody uses wireless mice but it's something to point out that optical just does not beat laser at.

 

the g602 is optical and it has the longest battery life of any gaming wireless mouse i'm aware of. So i think you are ill informed on power consumption of the competing technologies.

 

I didn't argue that older is better. But you argued that Laser is newer and because it is newer it is indicative of being a better technology.

 

If you think the performance is negligable, why do you think if you play FPS games you'll probably prefer optical?

[STRMfrmXMN]

the g602 is optical and it has the longest battery life of any gaming wireless mouse i'm aware of. So i think you are ill informed on power consumption of the competing technologies.

 

I didn't argue that older is better. But you argued that Laser is newer and because it is newer it is indicative of being a better technology.

 

If you think the performance is negligable, why do you think if you play FPS games you'll probably prefer optical?

Optical for FPS: slower tracking = better for FPS even if the difference is small at best.

 

And laser mice using less power is just the common consensus. The G602 seems to be one of the major outliars (also one of my favorite mice). But laser mice tend to have better battery life simply because of the sensor in optical mice emitting light. Unless this has changed from what Logitech told me about a year ago when I was looking at wireless mice. I have no idea if some sort of tech miracle happened from March of 2013 to now.

[atavax]

Optical for FPS: slower tracking = better for FPS even if the difference is small at best.

 

And laser mice using less power is just the common consensus. The G602 seems to be one of the major outliars (also one of my favorite mice). But laser mice tend to have better battery life simply because of the sensor in optical mice emitting light. Unless this has changed from what Logitech told me about a year ago when I was looking at wireless mice. I have no idea if some sort of tech miracle happened from March of 2013 to now.

 

you don't have to play at max dpi, using a laser mouse doesn't make your tracking faster... Instead of making up bullshit and pretending you know what you're talking about, why don't you ask someone serious about fps why they don't use laser mice. Why don't you ask a professional cs:go player what made them choose the mouse they did?

 

the problem when you make a generalization in a guide like this is maybe someone doesn't buy a g602 because they think it has poor battery life because you said lasers are more efficient..

[atavax]

you are so unbeleivably stubborn.

 

look at this pick you posted for palm

plain as fucking day. Index finger isn't touching the mouse until the last phalanges. On the razer sight, it clearly has the entire index finger shaded in contact for palm and it clearly has just the last phalanges shaded for the claw grip. and you claim oh its identical to the palm. Because you're too arrogant to admit you were wrong.

[STRMfrmXMN]

you are so unbeleivably stubborn.

 

look at this pick you posted for palm

plain as fucking day. Index finger isn't touch the mouse until the last phalanges. On the razer sight, it clearly has the entire index finger shaded in contact. and you claim oh its identical. Because you're too arrogant to admit you were wrong.

So because I have a short mouse that my fingers travel up rather than laying flat into the mousepad means that my palm sitting directly against the back of the mouse and my fingers going down as far as they possibly can doesn't qualify as a palm grip? From where I come from, if your palm is up against the back and your fingers are set on the mouse, you have a palm grip.

 

And you'e got a lot to go up against if you want to tell me that the way my fingers shape themselves is wrong...

 

you don't have to play at max dpi, using a laser mouse doesn't make your tracking faster... Instead of making up bullshit and pretending you know what you're talking about, why don't you ask someone serious about fps why they don't use laser mice. Why don't you ask a professional cs:go player what made them choose the mouse they did?

 

the problem when you make a generalization in a guide like this is maybe someone doesn't buy a g602 because they think it has poor battery life because you said lasers are more efficient..

And laser mice do track faster. Easy Google search for the uninformed is a few clicks away.

Or watch this.

 

 

And if people buy a G602 without reading the reviews to tell them that it goes for months on battery then that is in no way my fault

[atavax]

So because I have a short mouse that my fingers travel up rather than laying flat into the mousepad means that my palm sitting directly against the back of the mouse and my fingers going down as far as they possibly can doesn't qualify as a palm grip? From where I come from, if your palm is up against the back and your fingers are set on the mouse, you have a palm grip.

 

And you'e got a lot to go up against if you want to tell me that the way my fingers shape themselves is wrong...

 

And laser mice do track faster. Easy Google search for the uninformed is a few clicks away.

Or watch this.

 

 

And if people buy a G602 without reading the reviews to tell them that it goes for months on battery then that is in no way my fault

 

your dpi or cpi determines your tracking speed. Both optical and laser mice are capable of being set to the 400 or 800 dpi settings that are most popular with cs:go players. Tracking speed has nothing to do with why optical is preferred. Also, why do you think that lower tracking speeds is more desirable in FPS when you can use ingame sensitivity to mimic as high or low a sensitivity as you like with effectively any dpi or cpi? Also Linus is mouse expert because he has a youtube channel? Here is what Logitech's product manager says about the difference

. Whats that? Modern laser sensors are capable of good tracking on a wider range of surfaces but have speed related variance that effect's everyone's ability to build muscle memory whether thats in a fps or moving your cursor across a massive multiple display setup and its not some made up bullshit about tracking speed? You even mention optical sensor's ability to track on surfaces like glass in the OP, which is totally wrong, its laser that can track on a wide range of surfaces, like this video points out. Optical struggles on transparent surfaces like glass. Who would of thought you're full of bullshit?

 

if you look at the image at the razer sight. the claw grip shows the palm is in contact with the mouse, correct? It shows the palm grip has the palm in contact with the mouse, correct? What is the main difference between the two? How low the fingers come in contact with the mouse. There are people that have their fingertips hanging over the front of the mouse, that is palm with a short mouse. When you lift your finger off the mouse and just have their tips touching the mouse, that is claw grip. What do you think the difference between a claw grip and a palm grip is otherwise? That if your finger forms certain sized angle or greater its palm?

 

Yes, you can argue the authority of razer to define the different types of grip. That isn't the point. The point is you still said that your palm pic was identical to razer's palm pic. and it is 100% clear as day that your palm pic fits their claw grip criteria, not palm grip criteria.

 

i am also not saying the way you shape your fingers is wrong. Palm isn't right and claw wrong. Claw is actually generally considered better for gaming. I am just pointing out that you provided a pic of you doing what is widely considered a claw grip and labeled it a palm grip.

[woll3]

And laser mice do track faster. Easy Google search for the uninformed is a few clicks away.

Or watch this.

 

Too bad that most of the Information from "Experts" is plainly wrong(i hope there is no forum police that bans me , altough the cpi video is quite correct), i dont judge you for that because common misconceptions are everywhere, but you could have done your homework better, also wtf is a "faster tracking", this doesnt exist, CPI = Sensitivity, François Morier publicly explained why high CPI is going against performance, also there are much more important values to tracking than CPI.

 

You are also missing a whole line of sensors, the Philips Twin Eye, which are using doppler interference to detect movement, also these are the ones when somebody says that "Laser" sensors have lower power consumption, but this doesnt translate

towards optical systems in which the actual architecture and features determines how big the power consumption is, e.g. 3310 is the LED lit variant of the A9800(they use the same DSP and share some other stuff) and both have the same power consumption.

 

"Newer is better" also doesnt apply to sensors, every new method that came out was "flawed" in a way for quite a while, optical sensors had a low malfunction speed when they came out(2000fps agilent sensors) and people still used their ball mice for that reason, same goes for early Laser lit sensors(A6010/6018), ONS I and PTE shared this as well. But here is the catch, while LED lit sensors for the most part have gotten straight up upgrades(A3060-->3080-->3090), the Laser lit ones have gotten a new architecture(A9500), which fixes the malfunction speed but exhibits a higher variance than the optical gaming systems, CPI in optical systems are never stable and that is called (speed related)variance, and is on the A9500 big enough that the User can actually feel, or see, what in the end is mouse acceleration. With A3090 6x SROM we also got smoothing for the first time (which ofc creates some delay as every kind of smoothing does) to counter the jitter high CPI are causing in current optical navigation systems, smoothing was then later on implemented in the "improved" version of A9500, the A9800. When it comes to Variance Twin Eye is the undisputed King with a Variance of under 0.1%, but because of the way it works, it also tracks on the Z-Axis, commonly referred to as "Z-Axis Bug", to counter that they implemented in the PLN2033 an algorithm which lowers the cpi to a minimum when the mouse is moved slowly or not at all, previous Versions didnt have this and with the latest one ,2034, it is actually toggleable.

 

Current trend is actually going away from Laser lit sensors, and focus more on the actual characteristics of the tracking, best example are the PMW3310 and S3988, which are practically the A9800 sensor "retrofitted" with LED illumination, note that high Variance isnt a trademark of Laser illumination but of the A9500/9800 platform, and simply the endproduct of them in combination with Laserillumination.

 

Also many people feel the difference between different sensors, and not only with different illumination methods, and it is frankly not "negligible", and since you are doing a guideline you should give the recommendations for the best performance, especially when it comes to something affordable like mice, also the difference between 5000 and 1000hz is not only feelable but also observable, since it directly influences the cursorpath.

 

About Surface compatibility, it depends on the sensormodel in use, A9500 for example cannot track on glass.

 

Last but not least, sensormodel alone doesnt dictate Performance, best example would be Perixx MX-1800b, which is using A3090 and hass an insanely low malfunction speed because of firmware and bad LED´s.

 

And there are is a lot more when it comes to mice.

 

I might have been "bashful" at some points but in the end i just want to help and clear up misconceptions, i also suggest reading up a bit on OCN.

 

Edit:

 

Also check out the mouse suggestion thread on OCN, i made something similar on a german forum and it works a lot better than having 5000 threads which are full of "i has mouz xy, iz bezt mouze".

[STRMfrmXMN]

I nearly broke my fingers forcing my palm to grip so weird, but the images for the grips are better.

[STRMfrmXMN]

Well, it looks like, in fixing some of the info on the main topic, I accidentally deleted my image for fingertip gripping  <_<

Anyways, @woll3, everything look better now? Anything else to add (still sticking with the two main types of sensors but am now more knowledgeable in the ways of this Twin Eye thing)?

 

Tanks.

[STRMfrmXMN]

And now the fingertip image is back.

[Sensual]

Good job Very detailed!

[STRMfrmXMN]

Good job Very detailed!

Believe it or not, some is still either incomplete or possibly even wrong

[STRMfrmXMN]

@woll3, anything more to clear up in my original post? Changed a few things but want to check first with ya.

[Aaron Rahnama]

My hands are 9.3 Inches Long 4 Inches wide. They don't make mice me...

[atavax]

you fail to mention that all modern laser sensors have acceleration, which is the major drawback of laser sensors.

 

"More expensive mice tend to use laser tracking these days, although this does not mean that laser mice are better by any stretch of the imagination. On paper (not literally on paper, but on the spec sheet), laser sensors tend to appear superior."

 

you are such full of laser bullshit. Why even tell people more expensive mice tend to use laser tracking? How is that supposed to help them make an informed decision? It seems like you're just trying to imply that laser is better without saying anything that is factually wrong. On paper, laser sensors don't appear to be superior, the 3310, 3366, and 3988 are all better or comparable on paper to laser sensors and almost all non bargain optical mice being made today are using the 3310, or 3988.

 

even Linus, strongly against laser sensors https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S68VXGDyjFc#t=139

[STRMfrmXMN]

you fail to mention that all modern laser sensors have acceleration, which is the major drawback of laser sensors.

 

"More expensive mice tend to use laser tracking these days, although this does not mean that laser mice are better by any stretch of the imagination. On paper (not literally on paper, but on the spec sheet), laser sensors tend to appear superior."

 

you are such full of laser bullshit. Why even tell people more expensive mice tend to use laser tracking? How is that supposed to help them make an informed decision? It seems like you're just trying to imply that laser is better without saying anything that isn't technically wrong. On paper, laser sensors don't appear to be superior, the 3310, 3366, and 3988 are all better or comparable on paper to laser sensors and almost all non bargain optical mice being made today are using the 3310, or 3988.

I'm not trying to imply that laser is better....

 

Copy-paste the paragraph(s) you want me to change, highlight in some way the changes you would make to it and I'll add them. I have to sleep so they'll be added tomorrow.

[atavax]

just so much is inaccurate. Instead of splitting it into 2, i would put it in 1 and say something like 

 

"Laser vs Optical: Laser and Optical mice work the same way, the difference is one uses a laser light source and the other uses an LED light source. Sometimes the LED light source uses visible light, but modern implementations seem to be leaning towards infared, which isn't visible to the naked eye. There isn't anything technologically possible with one that isn't possible with the other.

 

While in the future this might not be the case, current laser sensors on the market have speed related variance, often referred to as acceleration or more specifically hardware based acceleration.This is not to be confused with software based acceleration. In hardware based acceleration, the mouse is struggling to track your movement which results in the mouse either reporting more or less counts then it should have. The results of hardware based acceleration is that the mouse can't consistently move the same distance even if you moved the exact same distance at the exact same speed, which means its impossible to build muscle memory for, making it impossible for fast and precise mouse movement in any game. Software based acceleration is often in the drivers for mice and is also available in third party software along with in your windows settings. Software based acceleration takes the reports from your mouse and then makes you move more or less depending on your selected preferences. This is accurate and consistent so software based acceleration is far superior to hardware based acceleration for those wanting speed to effect distance. So even if you like acceleration (i do) you are better off achieving it with a mouse that has no hardware based acceleration and getting acceleration through software.

 

While high end optical sensors are currently the most desirable for good tracking performance in games, you need to beware of cheap optical sensors which often have low max speeds before they start to malfunction. Fortunately most mouse manufactures advertise the max speed of their mouse. Unless you use a relatively low sensitivity, you should be fine with a max speed of 3 meters per second or 115 inches per second. If you use a pretty low sensitivity, you should probably look for an optical sensor with a max speed of at least 4 meters per second or 155 inches per second.

 

Laser mice also generally track slightly better on non ideal surfaces.

 

Finally: HIGH MAX DPI IS MEANINGLESS MARKETING BS. IT DOES NOT MEAN A MOUSE IS MORE ACCURATE. IGNORE THE MAX DPI OF THE MOUSE!!!!"

[STRMfrmXMN]

just so much is inaccurate. Instead of splitting it into 2, i would put it in 1 and say something like 

 

"Laser vs Optical: Laser and Optical mice work the same way, the difference is one uses a laser light source and the other uses an LED light source. Sometimes the LED light source uses visible light, but modern implementations seem to be leaning towards infared, which isn't visible to the naked eye. There isn't anything technologically possible with one that isn't possible with the other.

 

While in the future this might not be the case, current laser sensors on the market have speed related variance, often referred to as acceleration or more specifically hardware based acceleration.This is not to be confused with software based acceleration. In hardware based acceleration, the mouse is struggling to track your movement which results in the mouse either reporting more or less counts then it should have. The results of hardware based acceleration is inconsistent, which means its impossible to build muscle memory for, making it impossible for fast and precise mouse movement in any game. Software based acceleration is often in the drivers for mice and is also available in third party software along with in your windows settings. Software based acceleration takes the reports from your mouse and then makes you move more or less depending on your selected preferences. This is accurate so software based acceleration is far superior to hardware based acceleration for those wanting speed to effect distance.

 

While high end optical sensors are currently the most desirable for good tracking performance in games, you need to beware of cheap optical sensors which often have low max speeds before they start to malfunction. Fortunately most mouse manufactures advertise the max speed of their mouse. Unless you use a relatively low sensitivity, you should be fine with a max speed of 3 meters per second or 115 inches per second. If you use a pretty low sensitivity, you should probably look for an optical sensor with a max speed of at least 4 meters per second or 155 inches per second.

 

Laser mice also generally track slightly better on non ideal surfaces.

 

 

Alrighty, will add.

 

 

 

Finally: HIGH MAX DPI IS MEANINGLESS MARKETING BS. IT DOES NOT MEAN A MOUSE IS MORE ACCURATE. IGNORE THE MAX DPI OF THE MOUSE!!!!"

 

THANK YOU I HEAR SO MUCH BS ABOUT HIGH DPI BEING IMPORTANT I WANT TO STAB THE MARKETING GUYS AT RAZER AND CO. THAT ALL BRAG ABOUT DPI STAHP. It's like RAM in GPUs. A higher RAM count does not a better GPU make. Same goes for DPI in mice.

[STRMfrmXMN]

snip

Alrighty, fixed. Anything else?

 

Also, this time it's for real, I gotta sleep. Night.

[woll3]

@woll3, anything more to clear up in my original post? Changed a few things but want to check first with ya.

 

Well the sensor part should be streamlined and broken down, the thing is that it never was about the actual illumination method, Wikipedia isnt a good source in that regard as well, as for example it is not the laser illumination that enables a bigger picture, that would be like getting more Horsepower when you put more lights on your car......

 

What i did in the Mouse Suggestion Thread on CB was to break it down into  a small glossar where i explained a few buzzwords surrounding the topic, it is simply easier for the reader to look at.

 

-Grip Styles

-Sensortypes

-Angle Snapping

-Cursorbehaviour/Jitter

-Variance aka Acceleration

-Lift Off Distance

-Z-Axis Bug/Tracking

-"Dynamic CPI Scaling"

-Smoothing

-Surface Compatibility

-Firmware Influence

 

And in each i was giving an example of a mouse and listed the sensors with certain "features" and how exactly it affects the user, regarding the sensortypes the most important part for me was to make clear that the illumination method isnt causing any given tracking properties, except PTE ofc.

[STRMfrmXMN]

Well the sensor part should be streamlined and broken down, the thing is that it never was about the actual illumination method, Wikipedia isnt a good source in that regard as well, as for example it is not the laser illumination that enables a bigger picture, that would be like getting more Horsepower when you put more lights on your car......

 

What i did in the Mouse Suggestion Thread on CB was to break it down into  a small glossar where i explained a few buzzwords surrounding the topic, it is simply easier for the reader to look at.

 

-Grip Styles

-Sensortypes

-Angle Snapping

-Cursorbehaviour/Jitter

-Variance aka Acceleration

-Lift Off Distance

-Z-Axis Bug/Tracking

-"Dynamic CPI Scaling"

-Smoothing

-Surface Compatibility

-Firmware Influence

 

And in each i was giving an example of a mouse and listed the sensors with certain "features" and how exactly it affects the user, regarding the sensortypes the most important part for me was to make clear that the illumination method isnt causing any given tracking properties, except PTE ofc.

Too much to add ATM but I will change it later today.