4K for Home Theater and WHY YOU MAY NOT NEED IT: Long Read

[RogueCow]

This is not:

- going to be about 4k media not being available yet

- going to argue 4k is "inferior" to 1080p (more detail content=bigger screens. Yay)

- going to be about monitors

This is about the technology, even with 4k content, not being measurably better to the eye than 1080p in most consumer TV sizes and viewing setups.

STRAP IN FOR A LONG READ IF YOU WANT TO LEARN SOMETHING

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Personally I am getting tired of all of the misinformation out there and questions about 4k vs 1080p

This post should serve as a first and final stop for all of those considering buying a 4k tv,

and if read in its entirety, should give users the information they need to make an informed

purchase and possibly save some money.

If this doesn't help any more than Linus' videos on the subject have,

then no one can help you XP

First Off: 4k monitors have value

Before I rant about 4k, I want to put out a disclaimer that (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) this is not directed towards 4k monitors. (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

I only really have first hand experience with TVs, and though the principles are applicable, I am not sure and don't want anyone looking for monitor advice to take my word for it.

Resolution is all about viewing distance vs. pixel density, and when you are sitting so close to a panel, <2' for instance,

you can see a difference in a 4k panel vs a 1080p vs a 1440p (though for smaller screens <32", this may even be debated...)

Main Attraction: What is Resolution?

Resolution is essentially the number of colored blocks that make up the image you see. generally, the higher the pixel density (number

of pixels in a square inch of screen), the clearer and more detailed your image can be.

The "value" in wanting a higher resolution screen is that as you increase the resolution, your picture can become more clean and will appear

as a picture instead of a bunch of colored blocks.

As an example, if you needed to make a 2d (1 layer flat) circle out of lego's, but only had four regular bricks, you would get a rectangle no matter what way you connect them.

However, if you were given lets say 10 legos, you would get a jagged shape that, from far away, could look somewhat circular.

As we get more lego's, we approach our image of a "perfect circle" (obtained at infinite lego's).

4K vs 1080p

Lets continue to use examples and keep things simple.

Lets use 1 human hair thats 4 times thicker than normal to represent our 1080p resolution, and 4 human hairs closely tied together (same final thickness as our single thick hair) to represent our 4k resolution.

If we put the hair and bundle of hairs on our computer desk and looked at them from 6" away, we would clearly be able to see each of the 4 hairs defined,

and the 1 single thick hair defined. If we were to move 2 feet back, the 4 hairs start to look like 1 thick hair, yet the 1 thick hair still looks like 1 thick hair. By the time we move back a full 6 feet,

we would be hard pressed to see a difference in either, and would guess that there is only 1 thick hair in each stack.

This is how viewing distance plays into resolution importance. If you noticed, you do see more detail when sitting closely to the "4k" hair display

This, however, leads into the uselessness of 4K in the home theater. Just as we see the 4 hairs as 1 from 6' away, so would we see 4 pixels as 1 on a tv (unless the

tv is large and the pixels are huge, but more on that later...). No matter what, from 6' away (in this example), you are going to get the same perceived image of one pixel no matter what.

The only benefit of having the 4k is that you would know you have the 4 pixels there, even though you cant see them (kind of like the money you cant see anymore cuz you wanted to buy those

extra pixels).

So when do pixels get big enough to see?

As you increase screen size, your pixel display size generally becomes bigger to keep the proper resolution ratio (resolution can mean different things depending on which kind of resolution is quoted, but ignore this for

the purpose of this discussion). For example, sitting 1' away from my 1080 27" monitor, I cannot distinguish any pixels individually. Yet sitting the same distance away from my 1080 60" tv showing the same image 1' away, I can

clearly see the little colored squares instead of the image.

But, sitting the proper viewing distance away from both (1' for the monitor and 7' for the tv), I essentially have the same perceived picture

That is the bread and butter of this post, if you sit the same distance away from a source and increase the resolution, you get to a point where you can only

see the image and IT CANNOT BECOME ANY MORE DETAILED!!!

Below is a sizing chart that I will explain:

Pick a point at a viewing distance and a TV size,

EX. 60" at 8' (aprox. recomended distance).

Anything above the point will decrease the "perceived detail".

Anything below will deliver the same "perceieved detail". <ie. you will see the SAME THING WHETHER YOU HAVE 1080P or 4K or 10000K

The general rule of thumb I have learned from my experience in other HT forums

IF YOU ARE THINKING OF SOMETHING 70" OR BIGGER, CONSIDER(only consider!!) 4K

OTHERWISE< SAVE YOUR MONEY AND GET SOMETHING WITH BETTER PQ AT 1080P SINCE YOU WONT SEE A DIFFERENCE

p

Bottom Line!

MANY MANY MANY reviewers have proven time and time again that at regular viewing distances, even the most experienced

videophiles cannot recognize a difference in 4k vs 1080 (viewing 4k and 1080p content of course). google it.

http://www.cnet.com/news/why-ultra-hd-4k-tvs-are-still-stupid/

Picture quality is so much more important than your resolution when buying a tv, to the point that 4k is essentially a marketing gimmick for sizes smaller than 70".

so, not even mentioning the fact that 4k content is rare,

it is a complete waste of money AT most common sizes!!!!!

What to Buy

I have personally tested more than 10 tvs in my home in the past 2 months; curved, 4k, LED, and Plasma. All 55" or 60"

UNTIL I FOUND MY F8500 PLASMA, My favorite was the E-series Vizio. since it was only $1000 for a 60" model and the blacks, picture recreation, and quality for the money

blew everything out of the water (yes, 4k and curved sets included).

If you really want a good TV, ignore the gimmicks (4K <-- hopefully you see it is pretty gimmicky at this point, 3D) and focus on your PQ.

If you are on a budget, look to vizio's E-Series. Excellent black levels and local dimming, and by far the best value for your dollar. (60" for less than $1000)

If you have the coin ($2000-$4000) AND CAN FIND ONE get a plasma: Panasonic ST60, VT60, ZT60, Or a F8500. All of these except the 64" F8500 are discontinued.

OLED tv will be the next best thing in terms of PQ, though some LEDs get close, but are still unseemingly expensive.

What do I have?

I lucked out and found an F8500 Plasma at my local BB that an online purchaser never picked up, and swiped it for $2500. It blew away every single tv I had tested, and it

was by far the best money I have every spent.

Conclusion:

Bottom Line, this is a computer based forum. 4K monitors DO have their place in this world, so most of the answers you are going to get here come from a background of assuming 4k is better than 1080p no matter what.

Since alot of pc guys may not cross over to the realm of home theater tech...

As i have quietly mentioned (lol) above, unless you are looking into projectors (usually 80" or bigger and will always benefit from increased resolution), or tvs much larger than 70", I GUARANTEE you would not notice a difference between a <70"

1080p and 4k TV at the recommended (~1.5 times diagonal tv size) viewing distance, other than the $1000s you could still have in your wallet.

Look into some Home Theater forums to learn more if you are interested in getting a good TV for your money,

there are a couple I am on but I wont post links out of respect for LTT (PM me for more information).

Why waste the Time Doing This?

I am tired of consumers being hoodwinked by big box companies into buying something they don't need.

ie, Spend $100 on this cup cuz its made of carbon fiber, you dont need it to be CF, but its cooler and newer so it must be better at holding water than

a $0.02 red solo cup.

I went out and got some knowledge on the subject and want to pass it

on to as many people as I can.

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Hopefully this helps and saves you guys some money,

PM me with any questions,

Josh

[Enderman]

I am at 3 feet from my 55" 1080p tv and I can't stop wishing I had 4k...

I can see every pixel

[Fate]

you can see a difference in a 4k panel vs a 1080p vs a 1440p (though for smaller screens <32", this may even be debated...)

There's nothing to debate, 28" 4k looks much better than 1080p and 1440p at 28" from your average [monitor] viewing distance, period. 

Sure I can't see the pixels unless I'm <2 inches away, but that doesn't mean I should get a monitor where I can see the pixels from 10 inches away if I'm sitting 12 inches away. 

4k is just much sharper and looks so much better than 1080p/1440p (though 1440p not as much). I'm sure 8k will look even better than 4k despite people saying it's pointless, but we'll have to wait and see. 

[knight_40k]

I've been against 4K TV's from the start because there is no TV or Movie content available yet and once there is, any TV out now will not be as good one you get when there is content for it.

[jbr]

Anyone poo pooing on 4K can't afford it.

 

Same people who spewed crap when Laserdisc came out, then DVD,, CD's  then Blu-ray......

and ya, I'm old enough to remember these same bull@#$ arguments made up by people who are butthurt they can't afford something

or their video/Audio collection is becoming obsolete.

 

It's getting really really really tired and quite frankly pathetic.

[jbr]

I've been against 4K TV's from the start because there is no TV or Movie content available yet and once there is, any TV out now will not be as good one you get when there is content for it.

 

Wrong.

 

Netflix is streaming movies and TV in 4K.

 

Sony sells 4K movies

 

Youtube has supported 4K since 2010.

 

Numerous Youtube channels are filmed in 4K exclusively now.

[Fate]

Anyone poo pooing on 4K can't afford it.

 

Same people who spewed crap when Laserdisc came out, then DVD, then Blu-ray......

 

It's getting really really really tired.

But that's really just how it is with everything. 

SSD's suck because they just increase your boot time and cost $500 (people before buying an SSD).

60fps is pointless because movies are shot in 24fps and are cinematic, etc (many people who have a console/can't afford higher end hardware).

It's just human nature to deny something is better than what you have when you haven't experienced it/can't experience it. I used to do it all the time when I was younger but I've learned to accept if something I have is bad, it's bad. If there's something I want and can't afford, I'll be envious instead of dogging on it. 

[jbr]

But that's really just how it is with everything. 

SSD's suck because they just increase your boot time and cost $500 (people before buying an SSD).

60fps is pointless because movies are shot in 24fps and are cinematic, etc (many people who have a console/can't afford higher end hardware).

It's just human nature to deny something is better than what you have when you haven't experienced it/can't experience it. I used to do it all the time when I was younger but I've learned to accept if something I have is bad, it's bad. If there's something I want and can't afford, I'll be envious instead of dogging on it. 

 

It's not lack of experience, it's envy.

 

People still rocking the VHS and Sony Walkman cassette players are convinced that if they spew enough nonsense and make enough silly charts

that the Jone's next door won't go out and get better stuff then them.

 

If you actually look at the charts and arguments they make, it pretty much mirrors the ones the 9/11 Truthers and Moon landing hoax losers make.   it's a mental issue.

[RogueCow]

Jbr i obviously spent a lot of time preparing a well thought out post based on fact and research.

Please take this cant afford it bs elsewhere; just because something is new, does not automatically make it better in every application.

The purpose of this post is to clarify WHEN 4K IS NECESSARY AND BENEFITS YOUR HOME THEATER. my experience is mainly in home theater and i know that 4k is good in some applications, otherwise IT IS A WASTE OF MONEY.

At one time i had spent $10000 in buying tvs for reviews and comparison, and settled on a $2500 1080p plasma rather than a 4k led since there was no measurable difference in clarity, and led technology is poop pq wise...

So again,

Take your dismissive "cant afford it" reasoning elsewhere and realise i am trying to give those asking questions in the home theater section an informed answer rather than the uninformed swill I usually see; arguments like "if you can afford it, buy 4k"

Thnx

[RogueCow]

Jbr stop posting here unless it will help someone looking for info. That is why i made this thread

[RogueCow]

I am at 3 feet from my 55" 1080p tv and I can't stop wishing I had 4k...

I can see every pixel

Why not move back? Lol. You may enjoy it more

[jbr]

Jbr i obviously spent a lot of time preparing a well thought out post based on fact and research.

Please take this cant afford it bs elsewhere; just because something is new, does not automatically make it better in every application.

The purpose of this post is to clarify WHEN 4K IS NECESSARY AND BENEFITS YOUR HOME THEATER. my experience is mainly in home theater and i know that 4k is good in some applications, otherwise IT IS A WASTE OF MONEY.

At one time i had spent $10000 in buying tvs for reviews and comparison, and settled on a $2500 1080p plasma rather than a 4k led since there was no measurable difference in clarity, and led technology of poop...

So again,

Take your dismissive "cant afford it" reasoning elsewhere and realise i am trying to give those asking questions in the home theater section an informed answer rather than the uninformed swill I usually see; arguments like "if you can afford it, buy 4k"

Thnx

 

Dude, I heard the same crap back in the 70's, 80's, 90's and the 00's.

 

Give it a rest,

 

 

oh and the moon landing hoax folks didn't a lot of "Factual" research also.

[Enderman]

Why not move back? Lol. You may enjoy it more

Because I want the tv to fill more of my peripheral vision for better immersion.

It's like a wall of six, except with no bezels and 6x easier for my GPU to run

[RogueCow]

Because I want the tv to fill more of my peripheral vision for better immersion.

It's like a wall of six, except with no bezels and 6x easier for my GPU to run

I see, more power to ya bud

[RogueCow]

Dude, I heard the same crap back in the 70's, 80's, 90's and the 00's.

Give it a rest,

oh and the moon landing hoax folks didn't a lot of "Factual" research also.

We understand, you are old and have always been a mainstream bandwagoner...

I just dont understand the point you are trying to make?

4k is better resolution, and in some (large) conditions can look sharper; I never said anything to the contrary and if it can be construed that way i will fix it....

But IT IS USELESS TO HAVE in certain applications; ie. less than 70" @ reg viewing distance. (AGAIN, MONITORS ARE DIFF STORY)

Feel free to argue that point, but if you do, it shows me:

a) you didnt bother to read OP

b ) you just bought a 55" 4k tv from bestbuy cause a 19 y.o kid with blonde highlights said it is the best thing out there and now you know you got ripped

either way, sry we are on different pages

[jbr]

We understand, you are old and have always been a mainstream bandwagoner...

 

 

 

As usual, posts like this appear around Christmas time. you're envious that everyone else is out shopping for the newest gadgets

and you're stuck with whatever you got.   All the charts and fuzzy math isn't going to change reality and people will still go out

and buy better stuff..... get over it or seek help.

 

This is a tech forum, you're just coming off a ridiculous,

 

 

SSD's are better

 

The Human eye CAN see more then 60FPS.

 

YES, we landed on the Moon in 1969

 

Yadda yadda yadda....

[Jaybird]

<img src:"/meme/DIDNT_READ.jpg">

[RogueCow]

As usual, posts like this appear around Christmas time. you're envious that everyone else is out shopping for the newest gadgets

and you're stuck with whatever you got. All the charts and fuzzy math isn't going to change reality and people will still go out

and buy better stuff..... get over it or seek help.

This is a tech forum, you're just coming off a ridiculous,

SSD's are better

The Human eye CAN see more then 60FPS.

YES, we landed on the Moon in 1969

Yadda yadda yadda....

I just bought an f8500 after doing months and months of research. First, If you can point me to a better 60" tv that is still in production, be my guest and try because it doesn't exist.

I am simply trying to pass on all of the knowledge i have gained, by consulting with certified industry professionals, to others so they can experience the satisfaction of making an informed purchase.

[jbr]

I just bought an f8500 after doing months and months of research. First, If you can point me to a better 60" tv that is still in production, be my guest and try because it doesn't exist.

I am simply trying to pass on all of the knowledge i have gained, by consulting with certified industry professionals, to others so they can experience the satisfaction of making an informed purchase.

I'm sorry if your are butt-hurt since you obviously have something to prove (probably little tube< haha little crt/penis pun), but i am simply trying to help; which should be why we are all here...

If you are just going to troll and ignore my presentation of the facts, which you keep claiming aren't facts yet provide nothing to prove otherwise, fine; but you are the one that looks ignorant and "rediculous" here...

 

You never researched anything, that chart and post is nothing but a copy/paste of one that was simply updated adding 4K  from another one that was saying the exact line of crap about 1080p being a scam to get us to upgrade and buy new media....blah blah blah.

 

The same crap has been appearing every December like clockwork for decades.

Even a popular electonics magazine many years go got laughed out of the park publishing nonsense like that back when Laserdisc came out.

 

Nothing new. 

[TheProfosist]

I think you have a few flaws in there which I can go over tomorrow after work.

Mainly you don't want to see the pixels especially when something is just scaling. As in more dots representing the same image within the same space. Basically it will just look sharper. This is kinda the whole thing that apple's retina screens are based on as they just scale not give you more work but everything looks sharper.

Being that 1080p is not all that great, especially on tv's that size go against you claim of people not being able to tell the difference when at the proper seating distance for a certain size TV. And I'll guarantee that I can, especially side by side. Also on a 27in 1080p monitor only 1ft away you will see pixels. 24 or even 23 would be closer to what your talking about.

[TheProfosist]

I've been against 4K TV's from the start because there is no TV or Movie content available yet and once there is, any TV out now will not be as good one you get when there is content for it.

Now that sir is a great reason not to get 4K and is what I thought this was all going to be about originally.

[TheProfosist]

Wrong.

Netflix is streaming movies and TV in 4K.

Sony sells 4K movies

Youtube has supported 4K since 2010.

Numerous Youtube channels are filmed in 4K exclusively now.

Yes and you have to have a good enough connection with requirements that are quite high. Also the selection is few and far between. Besides that you need a device that can output 4K and on the consumer electronics end of things those are quite rare. Another thing to keep in mind is that a very large amount of people still buy dvds to play on their 1080p tv's.

Sony sells them in a proprietary format and its not even the one their trying to push to become standard.

i've also heard that you can read them through direct TV for $15 a pop.

Also how many consumers have a computer capable of outputting and hooking up to a 4k TV and will play youtube videos off of it. I can tell that number is very very tiny.

Until this whilew Internet this is figured out 4k streaming really won't be an option, or at least one with any real quality. 4K basically has to come down in price quite a bit more and become mainstream with easily accessible content distribution. This exact same thing had to happen with 1080p as well.

[Shaqo_Wyn]

TL;DR

 

4K TV's, little 4K content. Not worth it yet.

[TheProfosist]

TL;DR

4K TV's, little 4K content. Not worth it yet.

That is actually surprisingly not what the OP is going on about.

[Theo]

That is actually surprisingly not what the OP is going on about.

After 10k posts, are you even surprised anymore when you see comments with no idea of what the OP was about? lol