Mantle demonstrates smoother gameplay in Civ 5 Beyond Earth (& what it means for the industry)

[Humbug]

So we all know Mantle is not mature yet, it is still not ready for cross-fire and that it will never be an industry standard.

 

What is has been very valuable as is a POC (Proof of Concept). GPUs from Nvidia and AMD are still getting significantly more powerful every year. But CPUs performance is just not improving at any significant rate. What these two contrary trends means is that CPU bottlnecks are going to become more and more common with high end GPUs.

 

That's one reason why more efficient graphics APIs are becoming so important. Mantle seems to be better at reducing overhead and spreading the load more evenly across multiple cores. A typical end result is like 15% better average framerates. But some recent testing shows more significant gains on the minimum frame-rate, which is obviously a more important metric for smoothness. Maybe because this is an RTS game with a lot going on for the CPU to do.

 

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Civilization-Beyond-Earth-Performance-Maxwell-vs-Hawaii-DX11-vs-Mantle/2560x1

 

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8640/benchmarked-civilization-beyond-earth/3

 

Above tests are on a 3960x and overclocked 4770K CPUs, so no shortage of CPU muscle. The gains will be less significant if you move upto 4K. i.e. a GPU bound scenario for today's graphics cards.

 

But the point of my post is that even though I believe Mantle may die in a few years it has had a very positive impact on the industry. As a direct response DirectX12 and OpenGL Next are probably going to achieve similar CPU gains and they will work on a wide range of hardware. In this way it's quite comparable to Nvidia's G-Sync, a technology that will remain proprietary but it has done it's bit to push the rest of the industry forward.

[SeanBond]

So really it's a massive improvement on the frame rate dips but overall performance isn't huge. Cool

[DeViLzzz]

I didn't really see this as a Green vs red thing so much as look at what mantle does, we all know dx 12 will probably do even better. Are you paid to always post about physx? I never see you talking about anything else lol

I do talk about other things but I am passionate about a company that makes games look better and PhysX does that. Seriously if you look at my history of posts I do talk about other things. I talk about gaming experiences, try to help people with pc builds although the other day I was horrible at it, and I bash SSDs for gamers. Hmmmm what else do I do? I report spam. I bash multi-monitor use as bezels are awful. I talk in off topic about music and other things.

Congratulations on being a fanboy and totally missing the point of the opening post.

Congratulations on cherry picking one game to try and proove a point in what you are saying. Let me see other titles where Mantle shows this.

[SeanBond]

I do talk about other things but I am passionate about a company that makes games look better and PhysX does that.  

Seriously if you look at my history of posts I do talk about other things.  I talk about gaming experiences, try to help people with pc builds although the other day I was horrible at it, and I bash SSDs for gamers.  Hmmmm what else do I do?  I report spam.  I bash multi-monitor use as bezels are awful.  I talk in off topic about music and other things.

It's just that I personally have never seen it, and you have above your physx comparison photo "physx promoter" so I think it's understandable I would think that. I love physx too but until nvidia unlocks it for amd to use it's not going to become an integral part of a game. Why would anyone want to cut out 35% of pc owners to make a game with physX prioritized. I love physX but it's not that amazing as it's only implemented in a few games and even then only worth while in fewer.

[SeanBond]

Congratulations on cherry picking one game to try and proove a point in what you are saying.  Let me see other titles where Mantle shows this.

 

 

Congratulations on being a fanboy and totally missing the point of the opening post.

He is kinda right, mantle is useless in just about every game with a good cpu. It's probably just because it uses 1 thread that there is massive improvement. Strategy games tend to use 1 core. Like total war. I don't know how they expect you to have 5000 people on screen fighting with only having 1 thread being used. 

[CCap]

I don't understand why you would ever even want to have a high framerate in Civ games. Sure it's nice, but you have all the time in the world to make your next move, it's not like someone with 10fps has an inherent disadvantage to someone with 60fps.

 

Sort of irrelevant to talk about performance numbers at all with this game imo. Let alone how it makes one graphics card sellers technology better than another. Okay, you can run BF4 and Civ;BE with 10 more frames per second, woop-de-doo.

[Scouten]

meh ever since i got my Gsync panel i gave up looking at Frames per second. shame that AMD did not get those "freesync" panels into Ryans hands yet

[Humbug]

PEOPLE THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT NVIDIA VS AMD OR WHICH IS BETTER.

 

 

Congratulations on cherry picking one game to try and proove a point in what you are saying.  Let me see other titles where Mantle shows this.

You don't get it do you?

 

My opening post admits that I am talking about CPU bound scenarios.

 

Typically you will see more modest gains. Like below

 

But my post is about how well a more efficient graphics API can alleviate bottlenecks from the CPU.

e.g. below you see big gains on the weakest CPU at a low resolution

 

 

Civ 5 being a strategy game makes CPU bound scenarios more common unlike the above. And anyway my point was that graphcis cards are becoming more and more powerful about 5 times faster than CPUs are. Which means that moving fowards graphics APIs like Direct X12 and OpenGL next which get the CPU out of the way is going to be very important in future.

 

Can't we have a tech discussion on this board anymore without in turning into an Nvidia vs AMD fanboy war?

[AlwaysFSX]

Good for them!  The 290X can finally beat a card.

[DeViLzzz]

Get the cpu out of the way?  Wouldn't it be nice if we have a cpu that it actually uses the power it has while still getting the most out of the gpu too?  How many people love seeing 1 core used still with many games?  It is idiotic.  If the graphics card is putting in work and the cpu isn't there is a problem. They should harness the power of the extra cores to do more and add more FPS to games.  The cpu and graphics card(s) working hard together all the time makes more sense.

Also I hate being accused of the fan boy/fan war thing.  I have liked AMD for certain things over time and I have bought an AMD cpu in recent years and have in the past.  I also had a 7850 1 GB video card for my son at one point.  I don't hate AMD so don't start a flame war.  I named my daughter after AMD btw.

[Humbug]

Get the cpu out of the way?  Wouldn't it be nice if we have a cpu that it actually uses the power it has?  How many people love seeing 1 core used still with many games?  It is idiotic.

That's where graphics APIs help, better mutlithreading means that CPUs will not bottleneck GPUs. That's what I meant by getting them out of the way.

And then we can put those CPU resources towards other things like AI.

[Mister Snow]

Congratulations on cherry picking one game to try and proove a point in what you are saying.  Let me see other titles where Mantle shows this.

Let me just point you to the title of this thread because maybe you missed it.

 

Mantle demonstrates smoother gameplay in Civ 5 Beyond Earth

[Snickerzz]

You can have your Mantle and when Witcher 3 comes out I will enjoy the PhysX. Nvidia .. play games the way they are meant to be played.

was that necessary to say?

[DeViLzzz]

That's where graphics APIs help, better mutlithreading means that CPUs will not bottleneck GPUs. That's what I meant by getting them out of the way.

And then we can put those CPU resources towards other things like AI.

Interesting.  That is a very helpful explanation you just gave me.

[ImBleu]

You can have your Mantle and when Witcher 3 comes out I will enjoy the PhysX.  Nvidia .. play games the way they are meant to be played.

 

Now lets not start this war. But who cares about PhysX either. I personally find Mantle more useful than PhysX; 

 

Anyway it's good to see some more adoption of the Mantle architecture. I just wish AMD and nvidia would stop being little girls about it and just make their Mantle/PhysX thing cross platform.

[DeViLzzz]

 

Let me just point you to the title of this thread because maybe you missed it.

 

Mantle demonstrates smoother gameplay in Civ 5 Beyond Earth

 

Actually that wasn't the OP's main point.  

[Humbug]

He is kinda right, mantle is useless in just about every game with a good cpu.

With a good CPU in other games the gains are typically smaller. But even in those it shows better spreading of the workload over multiple cores.

The current industry trend is that CPU performance is improving much slower than GPU performance is. Which means more CPU bottlenecks coming up, more efficient APIs like OpenGL next,  DX12 and Mantle can help to alleviate that.

[Mister Snow]

Actually that wasn't the OP's main point.  

He was talking about API's generally and using Mantle as an example because it is the only variant to Direct X at the moment that allows developers to go "down to the metal" and optimize better. Ok, you say you're not a fanboy and you like PhysX but what does Nvidia and it's PhysX have to do with this thread? I personally find Mantle to be far more useful than PhysX as it improves performance and allows for more stuff to be drawn and to interact with each other. Also, Mantle may be the bridge we need to make more games for Linux.

 

Op pointed out that Mantle may become useless when DirectX and new OpenGL come out and that is very likely to be true but it still does not change the fact that it enables better performance in some games today. Nvidia does some great stuff and they get recognition for it so why doesn't that apply to AMD as well when they do something good? People just jump to defend Nvidia and state what does it have that AMD does not.  

[qwertywarrior]

what i like about mantle or "close to metal" APIs ir what ever they are called

is that it can change the landscape of games so they dont fear to make games CPU intensive

 

OpenGL NG will push things forward i hope

[Valentyn]

The main thing I care about Mantle is that it's been given to the Khronos Group to help improve OpenGL. Which is better for the entire industry as opposed to any Proprietary tech NVIDIA might be pushing.

 

The fact that it's helping with minimum FPS drops so much should be good news for everyone. More stable FPS is good for all, especially since newer Graphics engines are embracing OpenGL more.

[Gunjob]

Great post, really interesting to see how much of an improvement it can make. One thing that is forever going to annoy me, 4K + x8 AA = WHYYY!?! Seriously, since I made the move to 4K you don't need any AA at all. But all benchmarks have stupid amounts of AA so you've no idea how in real world situations your card would perform.

 

Example being my single 290x runs soooo many games @ max settings (no AA) at 60fps solid (v-sync'd). Games like Thief maxed out (even with mantle) I'm getting average 45fps without AA.

 

So I will be buying a GPU for the small amount of power I'm missing, but benchmarkers make it seem like we're so far off good 4K performance. When all they need to do is get rid of the useless AA they've turned on. 

[cesrai]

Will Mantel is great and I love what it did to the industry.

[mr moose]

When I first heard about mantle I was excited, I got all geared up at the thought of never having to pay top dollar for a cpu and that I could happily settle for a middle of the road CPU. But in typical AMD fashion it seems to be taking forever to come, is way over hyped and doesn't look like it is actually going to offer much over the competition even if DX12 turns out to be shit or locked to an OS I'm not ready to upgrade to.

[Tigerbomb8]

Congratulations on cherry picking one game to try and prove a point in what you are saying.  Let me see other titles where Mantle shows this.

Here you go.. 

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/30723689762330451/2080278F289694D9A4C7D1BAB51F575703A3F2F6

[mr moose]

Here you go.. 

http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/30723689762330451/2080278F289694D9A4C7D1BAB51F575703A3F2F6

 

Link broken:   not found.