Dac/Amp improve sound quality?

[Efeyth]

So basically the title, does having a dac/amp improve the listening experience or does it just make things louder?

I also have the ASUS G74SX-A1 gaming laptop and was wondering if I'd need to worry about any sound issues

if the onboard sound is crap or something?

[BoredErica]

It can make things louder. That's it. Please read the FAQ next time before posting, and call us when you've decided to upgrade your headphones.

[ShadowCaptain]

So basically the title, does having a dac/amp improve the listening experience or does it just make things louder?

I also have the ASUS G74SX-A1 gaming laptop and was wondering if I'd need to worry about any sound issues

if the onboard sound is crap or something?

 

Depends, most cheap headphones would not benefit at all from a DAC/AMP, especially considering the cost of this equiptment vs the cost of your headphones

 

an AMP is needed for high impedence headphones, as they will be too quiet when used with a weak sound device

 

a DAC can improve audio quality as this helps create an improved analog signal, however some cheap headphones will not improve enough, for the cost you could buy better headphones

 

 

So it really depends on what you are connecting, it will imrpove the quality / volume of anything, but how much its worth depends on A your money, and B your headphones/speakers

[Efeyth]

It can make things louder. That's it. Please read the FAQ next time before posting, and call us when you've decided to upgrade your headphones.

Yea i read it but it didn't really fully answer the improving sound quality part so I just wanted someone else to say it and ShadowCaptain did so all good now.

 

 

 

Depends, most cheap headphones would not benefit at all from a DAC/AMP, especially considering the cost of this equiptment vs the cost of your headphones

 

an AMP is needed for high impedence headphones, as they will be too quiet when used with a weak sound device

 

a DAC can improve audio quality as this helps create an improved analog signal, however some cheap headphones will not improve enough, for the cost you could buy better headphones

 

 

So it really depends on what you are connecting, it will imrpove the quality / volume of anything, but how much its worth depends on A your money, and B your headphones/speakers

Sweet thanks for the reply was exactly what i was looking for.

[creatip123]

an AMP is needed for high impedence headphones, as they will be too quiet when used with a weak sound device

 

 

A little correction, a separate/dedicated amp is needed if the built-in amp of a device can't drive the headphone to the desired volume, and/or there are distortions and clippings present. The real determining factor is not the impedance actually (unless, maybe, if it's crazy high, like the Beyer's T1 600 ohms), but the sensitivity/efficiency of the headphone vs the power the amp can spew out.

 

For example, my ipad 3 can drive a HD650 (300 ohms, 103 dB) to the desired volume, but can't drive a Hifiman HE400 (35 ohms, 93 dB) to my desired volume. It's because while HD650 got higher impedance, but it's much more efficient than the HE400 (103 dB vs 93 dB)

 

To OP: a dac and/or an amp can give some coloration to the sound (in other words, change the sound a bit), for better or worse. Problem is, the change is very very small and subtle, that you'd need a sharp ear to hear it. Plus, like Shadow said, some headphones are not sensitive enough to changes in dac/amp to really benefit from them.

 

Biggest margin of differences still lies in a headphone upgrade. 

[Whit3Rav3n]

A little correction, a separate/dedicated amp is needed if the built-in amp of a device can't drive the headphone to the desired volume, and/or there are distortions and clippings present. The real determining factor is not the impedance actually (unless, maybe, if it's crazy high, like the Beyer's T1 600 ohms), but the sensitivity/efficiency of the headphone vs the power the amp can spew out.

 

For example, my ipad 3 can drive a HD650 (300 ohms, 103 dB) to the desired volume, but can't drive a Hifiman HE400 (35 ohms, 93 dB) to my desired volume. It's because while HD650 got higher impedance, but it's much more efficient than the HE400 (103 dB vs 93 dB)

 

To OP: a dac and/or an amp can give some coloration to the sound (in other words, change the sound a bit), for better or worse. Problem is, the change is very very small and subtle, that you'd need a sharp ear to hear it. Plus, like Shadow said, some headphones are not sensitive enough to changes in dac/amp to really benefit from them.

 

Biggest margin of differences still lies in a headphone upgrade. 

Or being even more precise, for higher impedance you need higher output voltage, for lower sensitivity you need higher output power.

[eLucid]

It can make things louder. That's it. Please read the FAQ next time before posting, and call us when you've decided to upgrade your headphones.

 

Couldn't be more wrong. Tube amps and solid state amps are worlds apart in sound reproduction.

[eLucid]

-snip-

 

You obviously haven't had much experience with many amps. Go to a head-fi meet, then come talk to me. Keep at it with your bitterly asinine comments.

[creatip123]

Or being even more precise, for higher impedance you need higher output voltage, for lower sensitivity you need higher output power.

 

+1

 

Can't understand why sound card producers (mainly) started this whole race of 'powering up to X ohms impedance', as if that's the only existing factor to be accounted for....

[BoredErica]

 

+1

 

Can't understand why sound card producers (mainly) started this whole race of 'powering up to X ohms impedance', as if that's the only existing factor to be accounted for....

Did they start the trend or did normal people have that misconception in the first place, causing the companies to decide to market "impedance driving"? I wonder. But surely you can see the reason why, it's one way to say "my amp is better" without having to provide serious specs. That makes it easy to market but also technically means they aren't lying. (We can drive 600 ohms impedance... with 0.00001 mw of power! See, we aren't liars!) There are worse marketing jargon out there, a motherboard advertising their amp to power a certain amount of impedance isn't that surprising. Keep in mind that before then, mobo amps didn't have ANY specs.  :unsure: Without many cares given by most consumers, mobo vendors have no pressure to change. I don't see that changing any time soon because nobody cares.

[creatip123]

 

 

Did they start the trend or did normal people have that misconception in the first place, causing the companies to decide to market "impedance driving"? I wonder. But surely you can see the reason why, it's one way to say "my amp is better" without having to provide serious specs. That makes it easy to market but also technically means they aren't lying. (We can drive 600 ohms impedance... with 0.00001 mw of power! See, we aren't liars!) There are worse marketing jargon out there, a motherboard advertising their amp to power a certain amount of impedance isn't that surprising. Keep in mind that before then, mobo amps didn't have ANY specs.  :unsure: Without many cares given by most consumers, mobo vendors have no pressure to change. I don't see that changing any time soon because nobody cares.

 

 

Yeah, a bit of 'plausible deniability', maybe. Their amps work well with most headsets out there. And if someone protest them because their amps can't drive inefficient headphones, they could just go 'b*tch please, what you're using is a "serious" headphone, so get a "serious" amp....'

[BoredErica]

Yeah, a bit of 'plausible deniability', maybe. Their amps work well with most headsets out there. And if someone protest them because their amps can't drive inefficient headphones, they could just go 'b*tch please, what you're using is a "serious" headphone, so get a "serious" amp....'

This is off topic and a derail (but it's not like I've been shy of doing that in the past  )... But you see it with all other mobo specs. "Dark caps". "Super MOSFETs". Bling words, but no measurements of anything in a way that means anything. Coincidentally, earlier today I've been thinking about the lack of meaningful specs on many aspects of a motherboard, so I went looking at Sin's list of mobo VRM components:

http://sinhardware.com/images/vrmlist.png

 

I remember him because on OCN he was the "other guy" who made the "other Haswell guide", but actually I find that he has far more knowledge on this stuff than I do.

[BoredErica]

 

Or being even more precise, for higher impedance you need higher output voltage, for lower sensitivity you need higher output power.

I would like to add something else:

 

Increasing the impedance of a headphone with a constant sensitivity means the headphone requires less total power (due to lower current in this case) to get loud, but that power must be delivered at a higher impedance. Typically past a certain (fairly low) point, an amp's max output power decreases as the impedance increases. So it might be able to do 300mw @ 150ohms, but it can't do 300mw @ 600ohms. Isn't that interesting? (Well, I think so at least.  ) Impedance can make things easier to drive and harder to drive in different ways at the same time, how about that!  :lol: Some of the (actual) engineers in HA would criticize me for speaking in terms of power and voltage instead of voltage and current or just voltage, but they're not here to keep me in check.  :wub:

[Whit3Rav3n]

 

 

I would like to add something else:

 

Increasing the impedance of a headphone with a constant sensitivity means the headphone requires less total power (due to lower current in this case) to get loud, but that power must be delivered at a higher impedance. Typically past a certain (fairly low) point, an amp's max output power decreases as the impedance increases. So it might be able to do 300mw @ 150ohms, but it can't do 300mw @ 600ohms. Isn't that interesting? (Well, I think so at least.  ) Impedance can make things easier to drive and harder to drive in different ways at the same time, how about that!  :lol: Some of the (actual) engineers in HA would criticize me for speaking in terms of power and voltage instead of voltage and current or just voltage, but they're not here to keep me in check.  :wub:

 

Well sensitivity is defined as sound pressure level/power so the higher impedance headphone will need the same output power if it has the same sensitivity ( at the same spl). It will need less current but it needs a higher voltage, that results in the same power output. So for a high impedance headphone the amp doesn´t need to be able to output high currents but needs to be able to output high voltage, for low impedance it needs to output high current but doesn´t need high output voltage. One reason why low impedance headphones are better for portable use, in portable devices output voltage is limited due to battery voltage so it can achieve higher power output with low impedance headphones.

[BoredErica]

Well sensitivity is defined as sound pressure level/power so the higher impedance headphone will need the same output power if it has the same sensitivity ( at the same spl). It will need less current but it needs a higher voltage, that results in the same power output. So for a high impedance headphone the amp doesn´t need to be able to output high currents but needs to be able to output high voltage, for low impedance it needs to output high current but doesn´t need high output power.

Hmm, but same sensitivity, higher impedance means higher efficiency, right? That means lower amount of power, same sensitivity.

[Whit3Rav3n]

Hmm, but same sensitivity, higher impedance means higher efficiency, right? That means lower amount of power, same sensitivity.

Since sensitivity is the same the efficiency is going to be the same as well. You will get the same spl at the same output power. Impedance only changes the voltage/current ratio.

 

(ok technically you will have less power loss from cable/connector/internal components resistances but this will not matter much since headphone currents are never really high)

[BoredErica]

Since sensitivity is the same the efficiency is going to be the same as well. You will get the same spl at the same output power. Impedance only changes the voltage/current ratio.

Very interesting.

But check this out:

http://www.jensign.com/bdp95/headphones/

(Scroll to bottom)

If you input 300ohms and 100db/vrms sensitivity, you get 94 db/mw.

600 ohms and 100db/vrms, you get 97 db/mw.

[Whit3Rav3n]

Very interesting.

But check this out:

http://www.jensign.com/bdp95/headphones/

(Scroll to bottom)

If you input 300ohms and 100db/vrms sensitivity, you get 94 db/mw.

600 ohms and 100db/vrms, you get 97 db/mw.

Ok here the issue is the high internal resistance of the amplifier. It is not because high impedance headphones are more efficient but because there is an internal resistance in the Amplifier connected in serial loop to the headphone. The output voltage loss on the resistor is or course U=R*I, and power loss is P=U*I, together P=R*(I^2) so if you have a low impedance headphone where more current flows through the output at the same power the power loss at the internal resistance increases.

[BoredErica]

The high internal resistance of the amplifier. It is not because high impedance headphones are more efficient but because there is an internal resistance in the Amplifier connected in serial loop to the headphone. The output voltage loss on the resistor is or course U=R*I, and power loss is P=U*I, together P=R*(I^2) so if you have a low impedance headphone where more current flows through the output at the same power the power loss at the internal resistance increases.

U = R * I

R is impedance, I is current, correct? U is "internal resistance", what is that?

 

I am inclined to believe you are right about the impedance changing the ratio of voltage vs current.

 

Power = Voltage x Current.

Power = Voltage x (Voltage/Impedance)

 

I think writing it out helps me understand. I still don't get something though. The calculator still spits out a different number... and the calculator follows this formula:

 

So the formula is wrong? The site clearly says, to convert a sensitivity rating to an efficiency rating, follow this formula, which means to convert a headphone's rated sensitivity to efficiency. It's 6am and I haven't slept, my brain is scrambled egg right now.

 

See, it's great to post these types of posts, typically somebody somewhere ends up learning something. I'll double-check this with my butt-buddy Xnor, but for now I will say, I am glad to have run into you and learned something today. 

[eLucid]

 

See, it's great to post these types of posts, typically somebody somewhere ends up learning something. I'll double-check this with my butt-buddy Xnor, but for now I will say, I am glad to have run into you and learned something today. 

 

Kudos! At least you admit it. One step closer young grasshopper.

[BoredErica]

-

[Whit3Rav3n]

Ok now I found the problem. There are two definitions of headphone sensitivity, the common definition is SPL/Power, but sometimes it is defined as SPL/Voltage. This article defines Sensitivity as SPL/Voltage and Efficiency as SPL/Power. So the formula is correct but if you would modify a headphone driver coil to have a higher impedance and leave it otherwise the same the SPL/Power would remain the same and not the SPL/Voltage. 

[BoredErica]

Ok now I found the problem. There are two definitions of headphone sensitivity, the common definition is SPL/Power, but sometimes it is defined as SPL/Voltage. This article defines Sensitivity as SPL/Voltage and Efficiency as SPL/Power. So the formula is correct but if you would modify a headphone driver coil to have a higher impedance and leave it otherwise the same the SPL/Power would remain the same and not the SPL/Voltage. 

I mean, I get it, voltage and power are very related, but can't we just have a proper name for each reading? I just call SPL/Voltage Sensitivity, SPL/Power efficiency. It's confusing to have two definitions. And now I'm more confused: So what I said was right given my definitions for sensitivity and efficiency?

 

So you typically use sensitivity as spl/power, then what do you call efficiency? spl/voltage?  :blink: Or do you typically use them interchangeably?

[Whit3Rav3n]

I mean, I get it, voltage and power are very related, but can't we just have a proper name for each reading? I just call SPL/Voltage Sensitivity, SPL/Power efficiency. It's confusing to have two definitions. And now I'm more confused: So what I said was right given my definitions for sensitivity and efficiency?

 

So you typically use sensitivity as spl/power, then what do you call efficiency? spl/voltage?  :blink: Or do you typically use them interchangeably?

Physically efficiency should be sound pressure power/electrical power, no idea why the site you linked defines spl/power as efficiency. So SPL/Power and SPL/Voltage are both sensitivity and they are interchangeable if you know the headphone resistance. So if you say that the SPL/Voltage should be the same for two headphones  but one of them has a higher impedance then it really means that the higher impedance headphone is more efficient. It just should not lead to the conclusion that higher impedance headphones generally require less power to drive.

[BoredErica]

Physically efficiency should be sound pressure power/electrical power, no idea why the site you linked defines spl/power as efficiency. So SPL/Power and SPL/Voltage are both sensitivity and they are interchangeable if you know the headphone resistance. So if you say that the SPL/Voltage should be the same for two headphones  but one of them has a higher impedance then it really means that the higher impedance headphone is more efficient. It just should not lead to the conclusion that higher impedance headphones generally require less power to drive.

If with the last line you are saying: In that specific case the higher impedance headphone would be easier to drive, but don't fall into the trap of thinking higher impedance headphones in general are easier to drive, then yes, I understand what you are saying. I definitely don't intend to use this as a rule to figure out which headphones are easier to drive simply my glancing over the impedance.

 

What is difference between SPL/"electrical power" and SPL/power?