Upgrading from stereo to surround sound advice

[Zerote000]

Hello,

This is my current setup, that i want to upgrade:

I have 2x Dali 104 tower speakers connected to a Denon DRA565RD.

 

I really like these speakers, they have good frequency range, and deliver good bass considering there isn't a dedicated sub. This is why i would like to keep them when upgrading. This means i will need to find a surround sound receiver, center channel and rear channels (maybe a sub). This is where a couple problems arise, for the center speaker, there really isn't much room under the tv, and neither on the tv table shelf (it's also split down the middle, meaning it would have to be at either side). Perhaps mounting the speaker above the TV would be an option?

 

As for the rear speakers, the couch is standing up against the walls, and the speakers will then have to be insanely thin, or mounted against the wall. Would mounting rear speakers against the wall, facing towards the couch even work, or would the sound be horribly unbalanced for the right and left spot, and only really balanced in the middle spot? (please do excuse my horrible paint skills, i was attempting to illustrate where i think the speakers should be placed (yes they are hanging on the wall, not sitting on the couch) and how they should be turned)

 

I have been looking a bit myself, both at used and new speakers, and here is what i have been able to find that has peaked my interest (this post is getting long, so i will just link to the speakers):

 

Center speaker:

Dali Concept center speaker (used ~90$):

it's quite big, but then again it's hard to find a center speaker that is very slim (in height) to fit either under under the tv or on the tv table. The only option with this would be putting it on the wall above the tv, or mounting it to the top of the tv (but it weighs 6.6 kg, and with barely any experience hanging speakers, i don't know how feasible this is. I also don't know if it's overkill with the two 5" midtones as a center speaker whose main purpose is dialog.

Manufacturer website

Seller website

 

Rear speakers:

Dantax (used ~37$ for both)

I have found these used speakers from Dantax, the seller doesn't know the exact model, but they look wall mountable and are very cheap.

Seller website

 

Monitor Audio Radius (used ~118$ for both):

These are very small, wall mountable and still not too expensive.

Manufacturer website

Seller website

 

Bose 161 (new - under 160$ for both, price not currently known):

I looked at these, because their frequency range is the highest of the rear speakers (except for the Dantax, who are unknown). These are also quite a bit more expensive, and look like they will be hard to mount facing towards the couch

Manufacturer website

 

Possible sub:

I'm not entirely sure i need one, since my current towers' range goes down to about 43hz and they play plenty loud. A dedicated sub would only be to get the frequency range even lower (20-30).

 

Amp/Reciever:

Pioneer VSX-424-K (new ~285$)

It's basically the cheapest surround sound reciever i could find (that has HDMI as an input option) and it seems like it's decent, with a good amount of watts per channel, and options. All i really need is good power for the front speakers, and EQ settings (my current speakers need a bass boost to sound satisfactory).

 

These are by no means nessecarily my favorites, they are just what i happened to find at an acceptable price. If you have any suggestions that would fit, i would love to hear them. My budget is flexible, but since i am a university student, and have a lot of other things on my shopping list i would like to keep the price a good but under 100$ per speaker. All help and advice is appreciated, since i am by no means knowledgeable in the subject, i just like good sound (i also apologize for any lack of quality in the pictures, i was using my phone).

 

Thanks in advance,

Chris (Zerote)

[Ian_Balisy]

There're always going to be trade-offs when putting together a budget surround sound system. My suggestion for you is don't blow your budget on the speakers. As a musician, audiophile and one-who-has-spent-too-much-money-on-audio-equipment, I can tell you with certainty that between a pair $100 speakers and a $400 pair there is usually very little difference. This is simply a product of the individual components not being cheap for really good speakers, and there is very little in terms of better components (tweeters especially) until you hit about $500 for a pair of speakers. In a blind listening test a friend of mine chose a $40 pair of speakers I own over the $375 pair he had just bought... he was devastated and in denial for a while, but he honestly thought the cheaper ones sounded better.

 

You are much more likely to notice better build quality in reasonably more expensive receiver that is better able to drive your speakers than a $50 price difference in the speakers. You're headed the right direction in terms of picking out used speakers, I 100% support this in most cases. However, since you're looking specifically for rear surround (which is used primarily for detailed ambiance tracks, footsteps, wind, etc.) I would suggest these: Dayton Audio B652-Air. I have there predecessor and they are an incredible value. While most speakers below $500 will have cheaper tweeters that are prone to harshness and often color the high frequencies (because they are made to emphasize explosions and dialogue), the Dayton Audio B652s are excellently balanced and fairly neutral in sound, which is great for detailed surround channels.

 

For a center channel, I would suggest the Dayton Audio CCS-33B for matched timbre and tone to the rears (this is actually more important than pairing front and center because center and rear audio channels are more similarly configured). Bic Venturi also makes good center channel speakers but they are more expensive. All the Dayton Audio speakers are wall mountable.

 

Keep in mind, I suggest these speakers because I honestly believe they are the best value under $500 per pair. However, I also suggest these speakers so that you can spend your current budget well. It's easier (and certainly more satisfying) to replace your surround speakers or center channel in the future when you have more money to spend than it is to replace your receiver. Additionally, remember that your receiver is handling all the electricity and signal going out to your speakers and should be of high quality. No company makes a cheap receiver without cutting some corners. In that light, I would recommend a Denon receiver. They are outstandingly well built, last forever, never have power handling issues, and my personal experience has been nothing short of stellar. Without have spent $150 on speakers, your receiver budget should be around $450.

 

Also, don't worry about getting a sub right now. If your front tower speakers are performing well in the low ranges, a subwoofer will only muddle the overall sound of your system.

 

As per your picks, never ever buy Bose speakers. They are way overpriced and have a very distorted sound profile that makes anything but action scenes in movies sound less than satisfying. Also, frequency range doesn't really mean anything in terms of quality. The quality of the sound you hear is in the quality of components used, not the specifications to which they were made. Monitor Audio Radius are fine speakers but won't outperform the Daytons I suggested and cost more. Dantax speakers are ok, but the build quality is not confidence-inspiring and they can sound harsh.

 

Hope this helps, sorry I wrote so much. Audio is a passion for me! 

[Jetster]

Mount your TV on the wall to make room for the center. TV mounts are not that expensive. Make sure your center matches your front in specs. Even if you have to put off the sub do the reserch on the AVR. Get a good one with the features you want. Like Standby Passthrough and upscaling. As far as your rears you are tight on space. Mount them above you or on the armrests

 

And I agree you should spend about $400 or more on a receiver. I have a Yamaha RX V571 and got a good deal for $320 a few years back but its has some cheap hardware but the DAC is good and it sounds great. I also have the Klipsch SW 350 Sub and its awesome with definitive technology fronts and center. Klipsch in the rear. Your goin to love the new channels

[Zerote000]

Hope this helps, sorry I wrote so much. Audio is a passion for me! 

 

Thank you for your reply (i do enjoy long replies), and sorry i didn't reply earlier, had a very busy week.

 

The Dayton Audio speakers look nice, especially for the price. The only problem is i have not been able to find a store in Europe selling these (except for the B652 (non-air) for a much higher price). Currently trying to find out what the price of their shipping to Europe is, or alternatively the price for shipping to an international APO box. If the shipping turns out to be more expensive then the price of the non-air B652 here in europe, i will just buy those and look elsewhere for a center speaker. (btw, would you recommend the Air over the non-air B652's? I see the older pair is about 20$ cheaper)

 

As far as the sub goes, it would be mostly to get the very low frequency sounds as well, since my current towers pretty much drop off at 43hz.

 

450$ Amp/reciever budget seems a bit high, especially since the Dayton Audio speakers total at 110$ for the three. The 285$ amp i found has the features i need and has enough power to power the speakers, but if a better amp makes that much of a difference, i will allocate the budget (i just have a lot of other stuff to buy, so that's why i was looking for a cheaper model).

 

 

Mount your TV on the wall to make room for the center.

Mounting the TV is not an appealing option for me for multiple reasons. First, the TV is big(55) and therefore heavy as hell (if i remember correctly, about 10 kgs), and i simply wouldn't feel comfortable having it hanging. I also like the way the setup looks right now, and the place is rented while i study at university, so drilling lots of holes in the wall for both speakers and TV wouldn't be the best idea. I have also found a center speaker mount that i think would work with most center speakers.

 

Edit: looks like the total cost of the speakers, with shipping and import tax is about 270$ for a pair of speakers that normally cost 110$

[Enderman]

For the center speaker you have a couple possibilities:

 

You can buy a sound bar, which is really low profile and sits right in front of the TV

 

or

 

You can have the center speaker in the shelf right beside the receiver (but this will not give perfect audio because the center speaker will be a bit to the left of center)

 

or

 

You can move your receiver up to the second shelf level, and put two either bookshelf speaker or two center speakers in the bottom 2 compartments, wired to the same center channel. This is sort of like option #2 but it will give centered audio like a single center speaker would.

 

For reference, look at what I did with my setup. Two bookshelf speakers right under the receiver:

[ruitti99]

For the center speaker you have a couple possibilities:

 

You can buy a sound bar, which is really low profile and sits right in front of the TV

 

or

 

You can have the center speaker in the shelf right beside the receiver (but this will not give perfect audio because the center speaker will be a bit to the left of center)

 

or

 

You can move your receiver up to the second shelf level, and put two either bookshelf speaker or two center speakers in the bottom 2 compartments, wired to the same center channel. This is sort of like option #2 but it will give centered audio like a single center speaker would.

 

For reference, look at what I did with my setup. Two bookshelf speakers right under the receiver:

I like your sound system

[Zerote000]

For the center speaker you have a couple possibilities:

The sound bar is actually not a bad idea, but unfortunately the empty spot you see in the bottom left of the TV table is reserved for a media center pc/file server that i will be buying soon, and the table is not high enough to support speakers over the height in the second picture with a ruler in the OP because of said computer and room for airflow for the amp.

[Enderman]

I like your sound system

Thanks

 

The sound bar is actually not a bad idea, but unfortunately the empty spot you see in the bottom left of the TV table is reserved for a media center pc/file server that i will be buying soon, and the table is not high enough to support speakers over the height in the second picture with a ruler in the OP because of said computer and room for airflow for the amp.

Well then a thin sound bar sitting on top of the tv stand would be the easiest solution. It would also be less expensive than trying to hang a center speaker on the wall

[Ian_Balisy]

Thank you for your reply (i do enjoy long replies), and sorry i didn't reply earlier, had a very busy week.

 

The Dayton Audio speakers look nice, especially for the price. The only problem is i have not been able to find a store in Europe selling these (except for the B652 (non-air) for a much higher price). Currently trying to find out what the price of their shipping to Europe is, or alternatively the price for shipping to an international APO box. If the shipping turns out to be more expensive then the price of the non-air B652 here in europe, i will just buy those and look elsewhere for a center speaker. (btw, would you recommend the Air over the non-air B652's? I see the older pair is about 20$ cheaper)

 

450$ Amp/reciever budget seems a bit high, especially since the Dayton Audio speakers total at 110$ for the three. The 285$ amp i found has the features i need and has enough power to power the speakers, but if a better amp makes that much of a difference, i will allocate the budget (i just have a lot of other stuff to buy, so that's why i was looking for a cheaper model).

 

It's really too bad you can't get your hands on some Dayton Audios, they're really a great value. I would definitely recommend the Airs over their older brother, as they pretty much just switched to well known a regarded tweeters and woofers for a slightly higher price tag. If you can find them, that is.

 

My suggestion would probably be to piecemeal this together since budget is a concern. By that I mean get a decent receiver ~$350 and don't spend much at all on the surround speakers at the moment. If you feel the need to get a sub, allocate ~$100 for that--as I had said above, BIC makes good subs, Yamaha's are good too, Polk Audio is not worth the money. I would not personally recommend a soundbar as they're weak options for a center channel and necessarily use small dynamic drivers that are usually chosen for their size and resonance characteristics rather than their sound characteristics. You could, if you get a center channel sturdy enough and large enough, simply rest your TV on the center channel--depends on how much your TV weighs (many are light enough these days for this to be acceptable). If not, I'd definitely suggested mounting the speaker above the TV, as this provides the best listening experience.

 

Once you've got your system together and you haven't spent much on the speakers, take the time to listen to the overall sound and get a feel for what you want to invest more money in in the future. Then, gradually hoard a fund together to change out one piece (better sub/surrounds/center channel, etc.). I'm a big proponent of building up to better and better systems over time, as you gain a much better understanding of how different pieces of a sound system improve or remain stagnant with price increases. Don't convince yourself that something must sound better if it costs more. As I mentioned above, there are wide gaps in component costs and thus even wider gaps between price points justified by better sound.

 

Also, companies that pay a lot for advertising (Sony, Pioneer, Polk Audio, etc.) have to generate that money somewhere--it directly inflates the price of their products. Companies like SVS and Elemental Designs (R.I.P.) make some of the best equipment out there despite the fact that you won't ever see an ad for their products.

[Zerote000]

(Sorry for resurrecting such an old post, but here is an update:)

 

I have emailed a couple companies regarding Dayton Audio speakers, and it doesn't seem like any of them are likely to start importing any of their speakers. I have been looking around at other speakers, trying to find some that are still within price range, but also supposedly decent. Down below are my current considerations.

 

Argon 6340

Translated page

These are made by a danish company, and are a fairly reputable brand.

The downsides: the cost (130$ for a pair), these are almost as expensive as importing Dayton Audio speakers from the US.

Upsides: great warranty because it's a danish store, and they have a store in most big cities, so it's easy to send them in if anything happens

 

Magnat Monitor Supreme 100

Translated page

These are made by a company that I'm not familiar with, but i saw a couple people recommend it on a European forum. They are currently cheap compared to the Argon speakers.

 

System One HCS-6CS

Translated page not available (Google translate is funky)

These are by far the cheapest solution i have found, at 400 Swedish krones (~50$) for 2 speakers and a center speaker, but it's a company i also have not heard of. They do produce quite high end stuff as well it seems, but as far as these speakers go, I'm kind of out in the deep end of the pool.

 

Behringer Monitor 1Control

These are also pretty cheap, but they are monitor speakers, and I'm not sure if that makes a big difference to the listening experience for more normal uses. The upside of these is they come with built in wall mounts.

[.spider.]

You don't need a center since your stereo base isn't that wide.

Phantom center is better than a cheap and bad placed center.

[dylan43270]

I would suggest looking into Micca for speakers. They just released some coaxial mini bookshelf speakers that would do quite well as satellites, as well as a center speaker. Both are currently on sale for $40 each for a limited time.

[Stagea]

(Sorry for resurrecting such an old post, but here is an update:)

 

I have emailed a couple companies regarding Dayton Audio speakers, and it doesn't seem like any of them are likely to start importing any of their speakers. I have been looking around at other speakers, trying to find some that are still within price range, but also supposedly decent. Down below are my current considerations.

 

Argon 6340

Translated page

These are made by a danish company, and are a fairly reputable brand.

The downsides: the cost (130$ for a pair), these are almost as expensive as importing Dayton Audio speakers from the US.

Upsides: great warranty because it's a danish store, and they have a store in most big cities, so it's easy to send them in if anything happens

 

Magnat Monitor Supreme 100

Translated page

These are made by a company that I'm not familiar with, but i saw a couple people recommend it on a European forum. They are currently cheap compared to the Argon speakers.

 

System One HCS-6CS

Translated page not available (Google translate is funky)

These are by far the cheapest solution i have found, at 400 Swedish krones (~50$) for 2 speakers and a center speaker, but it's a company i also have not heard of. They do produce quite high end stuff as well it seems, but as far as these speakers go, I'm kind of out in the deep end of the pool.

 

Behringer Monitor 1Control

These are also pretty cheap, but they are monitor speakers, and I'm not sure if that makes a big difference to the listening experience for more normal uses. The upside of these is they come with built in wall mounts.

 

Magnats are pretty good for the price. As mentioned previously, you can skip the center speaker for now as your L/R channels are fairly close together anyway (how much spread in degrees do you have between them from the listening position?). Use the center channel money to treat your back wall (if you can't move the seat forward). The reflections from a wall just behind you can hurt the experience, so having diffusers/absorbers there can help tremendously.

 

Mount the surround speakers above your ear level. Since your seat is against a rear wall, you can wall-mount the speakers on the left and right walls. Put them high enough so that your head does not hit them, then time-align the channels and adjust the gains. Use your receiver's bass management settings to prevent your surrounds from distorting (redirect low frequencies to your front channels). Lastly, apply equalization to get all your channels close to each other in timbre.

 

You should be getting a good surround experience at this point. You can add a sub later on once you get extra money.

[Zerote000]

I would suggest looking into Micca for speakers. They just released some coaxial mini bookshelf speakers that would do quite well as satellites, as well as a center speaker. Both are currently on sale for $40 each for a limited time.

Those look nice, but unfortunately they don't really have a European market and importing nearly triples the price. I was also recommended Dayton Audio, and i would love to get them, but just like these, they triple in price when importing.

 

 

Magnats are pretty good for the price. As mentioned previously, you can skip the center speaker for now as your L/R channels are fairly close together anyway (how much spread in degrees do you have between them from the listening position?). Use the center channel money to treat your back wall (if you can't move the seat forward). The reflections from a wall just behind you can hurt the experience, so having diffusers/absorbers there can help tremendously.

From the center listening position (when leaning back), there is currently an 18.78 degree spread from the tower to the center, so a 37.56 spread between two towers. I do have enough space to increase that to a combined 42 degree spread by spreading the towers, although i can't really move the couch forward. I have thought about diffusers/absorbers but currently i have a quite big print hanging on the back wall, so that would come later.

 

 

Mount the surround speakers above your ear level. Since your seat is against a rear wall, you can wall-mount the speakers on the left and right walls. Put them high enough so that your head does not hit them, then time-align the channels and adjust the gains. Use your receiver's bass management settings to prevent your surrounds from distorting (redirect low frequencies to your front channels). Lastly, apply equalization to get all your channels close to each other in timbre.

Will do, thanks for the info:D

 

 

You can add a sub later on once you get extra money.

I will likely end up adding a sub as soon as i find one i like, it's really just i don't want to spend several hundred dollars per speaker

[Stagea]

 

From the center listening position (when leaning back), there is currently an 18.78 degree spread from the tower to the center, so a 37.56 spread between two towers. I do have enough space to increase that to a combined 42 degree spread by spreading the towers, although i can't really move the couch forward. I have thought about diffusers/absorbers but currently i have a quite big print hanging on the back wall, so that would come later.

 

Try to spread out your front speakers, but not to the point that one would be right beside a side wall (the reflection can ruin the output). If you can't avoid a side wall, hang an absorber on the first reflection point of the speaker close to the wall to minimize the impact. 

 

With your narrow L/R spread, a center channel speaker may not be necessary (unless you want a really wide listening sweet spot).

[Zerote000]

Try to spread out your front speakers, but not to the point that one would be right beside a side wall (the reflection can ruin the output). If you can't avoid a side wall, hang an absorber on the first reflection point of the speaker close to the wall to minimize the impact. 

With your narrow L/R spread, a center channel speaker may not be necessary (unless you want a really wide listening sweet spot).

A wide listening spot would be nice, as the couch can fit 3-4 people, and i think not having a center speaker would just look weird. Also, i think i might have found a pretty good deal on some pretty good speakers. I have an exam tomorrow, but after that's taken care of i will see if i can get them. They are the Argon 6340 that i linked earlier, just for 500-600kr (80-95$)  instead of 800 (127$). If i get those, i will be able to set up a temporary surround sound until i find a center and sub

[Zerote000]

Alright, so a little update. I found a guy selling the Argon 6340 speakers used with 2 years of warranty left for a little less than 70$ (new price is 122$). I ordered my receiver the same day, and I'm still waiting for it to arrive. In the meantime, i have disconnected my Dali 104s to try these out, and they sound surprisingly good. They cover low frequency a lot better than i had expected of speakers of this size, and produce detailed audio across the board.

 

The receiver i ordered is the Pioneer VSX-824-K, a 5.2 receiver with some limited internet ability. It had gotten quite good reviews for sound quality, and was currently on sale, so i decided to pick that one.

 

 

So on to the next bit of speculating. I'm going to need to wall-mount the rear speakers, and the only wall-mounts i have been able to find that support turning the speaker [nearly] sideways is the B-Tech BT77. The problem, this wall-mount only supports 7 degrees of tilt. Below is a picture of the middle and right couch positions. In the middle position is an outline of the average upright sitting position. To the right is an outline of the highest sitting position, where the speaker needs to be higher than that (granted, it is quite far to the right, and normally it wouldn't be directly under the speaker). The black box represents a possible mounting point for the speaker, and the black line from that box to the middle listening position is an 18 degree tilt. The bottom black line represents where the speaker would have to be for a 7 degree tilt to hit the middle listening position.

 

So my question is: how much would it matter that the speakers would be facing not directly into the listening position, but instead above it. Can i count on the sound to spread enough that it's not a problem, or should i find a different wall mount?

 

 

-Chris (Zerote)

[.spider.]

Diffuse sound from the rear channels isn't a big problem and I would choose it over sound clarity because of the close distance.

[Stagea]

 

So my question is: how much would it matter that the speakers would be facing not directly into the listening position, but instead above it. Can i count on the sound to spread enough that it's not a problem, or should i find a different wall mount?

 

 

 

-Chris (Zerote)

 

Congrats with the new gear, Chris. You should be fine with the surrounds being off-axis from your listening spot.

 

You can actually fire them facing each other about 2 feet above your ear level so that they won't sound so directional (to create a more enveloping surround field).

[Zerote000]

Congrats with the new gear, Chris

Thanks:D

Speaking of new gear, i got some more. I received my receiver, and have pretty much set it up except for a couple temporary cable runs.

 

I also managed to find a barely used Magnat Monitors Supreme 301A, a 12" sub for half price (138$ instead of 275$)

 

With these additions, the system is really sounding great. Still a couple of things left to do, i have to wallmount the rear speakers with the mounts i bought (i don't have a drill, so will have to wait until the weekend). There are some final cable runs to do, and i have to set up my desktop with the receiver as well, and then at some point look at getting a center, but for now the phantom center works wonders. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread:D

 

-Zerote