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Valve taken to court by Australian consumer commission over Steam refund policy

Dietrichw

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The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission is suing Valve in federal court over the company's refund policy on Steam, alleging that Valve "made false or misleading representations regarding the application of the consumer guarantees under the Australian Consumer Law."

 

According to a release from the ACCC, Steam's refund policy is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law. Even though Valve doesn't have a physical presence in Australia, the company is still selling to its residents, and the law applies to "any business providing goods or services within Australia."

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okay whats the whole point in this. it's digital, its much harder to "return" something when there is no physical copy.

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I accidentally bought Final Fantasy 8 instead of 7 because it was late and I didn't pay attention to the one stupid "I" or the characters and Steam wouldn't give me a refund. I mean sure I played them both by now but I really would have liked to have some kind of 24 hour thing. I hope in vain that would make devs create games longer than 24 hours too, or even 12 because I sleep half the time

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Is it even worth the effort to try and sue a company overseas?

 

Yes, they can prevent Valve from trading with Australian consumers if they don't apply the rules. Just because American laws allow companies to walk all over consumers, doesn't mean they can do it everywhere on the earth.

 

okay whats the whole point in this. it's digital, its much harder to "return" something when there is no physical copy.

 

It's not about physically returning something, as with any good or service, if it isn't as described/doesn't work you're entitled to a refund, there are also other rules on returns. It's not hard, Valve deletes the game from your account and reimburses the purchase price as per the receipt.

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Finally. Americans wouldn't understand this. Steam's non-return policy is actually an atrocity that needs being beaten down. And I'm all for the collective civilized world teaching the US about consumer rights.

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But how would it work if you buy a game from a third party? They can deactivate the key I guess but it would be a hassle for Valve to contact the company to refund the money to customers.

 

That's the price you pay when you take a cut from all sales and do retail: You normally don't have to go return tvs to Sony or Samsung headquarters, you take it back to fucking best buy or Walmart and they have to deal with it for you, because they got a cut of the profits to begin with.

That's how any retail store should work and Valve is actually lucky this hasn't been enforced everywhere and SHOULD pony up the fucking cash and refund.

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Is it even worth the effort to try and sue a company overseas?

Well seeing as Valve regionalise pricing to Australia, and we pay Australian Tax, it means they're registered in Australia so have to obey Australian Laws towards Australian based purchases.

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Well seeing as Valve regionalise pricing to Australia, and we pay Australian Tax, it means they're registered in Australia so have to obey Australian Laws towards Australian based purchases.

Valve does regionalise pricing to Australia, but neither they or us pay any Australian tax on purchases through steam. The pricing they do is completely artificial.

 

EDIT: I should be more clear, by 'they' I mean publishers. Valve only decides pricing on Valve titles.

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seriosly?

Please elaborate, this is the reason why this sort of shit is banned on many forums. Whilst I think GIF responses are often funny, such as the cat one above. This shit is confusing. Are you facepalming a comment or the case and is it because you agree or disagree with valve/the ACCC

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They don't give refunds for the same reason they are registered in Luxembourg in the EU.

 

It saves them loads of money, there is no other justifiable reason.

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Valve does regionalise pricing to Australia, but neither they or us pay any Australian tax on purchases through steam. The pricing they do is completely artificial.

 

EDIT: I should be more clear, by 'they' I mean publishers. Valve only decides pricing on Valve titles.

 

because the sales tax applied to every community market purchase is "artifical" isn't it? that artificial tax definitely doesn't remove a portion of profits from the seller right? NO company in any first world country is exempt from taxes. The only anomaly to this is U.S. based companies selling to another state (and even this anomaly is starting to vanish due to progressing laws).

 

They don't give refunds for the same reason they are registered in Luxembourg in the EU.

 

It saves them loads of money, there is no other justifiable reason.

Whether or not it saves them money is not a question. Rather it is a point based upon the fact that they are operating a business within an sovereign country (Australia) and not following it's laws. You cannot hop from France to Germany and sell fruit without a license, the same way you cannot sell a virtual item/license within Australia even if you are from the USA without first abiding by their laws (I.e. they have to allow a fucking refund or their not allowed to sell shit to Australians)

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Is it even worth the effort to try and sue Valve?

But seriously.

 

Who do you guys think will win?

 

The AU Govn't or Valve?

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Whether or not it saves them money is not a question. Rather it is a point based upon the fact that they are operating a business within an sovereign country (Australia) and not following it's laws. You cannot hop from France to Germany and sell fruit without a license, the same way you cannot sell a virtual item/license within Australia even if you are from the USA without first abiding by their laws (I.e. they have to allow a fucking refund or their not allowed to sell shit to Australians)

 

My post was in reference to the technicalities involved with facilitating returns of digital items. As in it's not because they can't do it, it's because they make more money if they don't. The same reason they are registered in Luxembourg for the EU market, they get to pay significantly less tax.

 

What Valve have done quite effectively is take advantage of the fact that regulations for 'digital goods' are not quite as clear as the regulations for physical goods. And that needs to change, Valve will not willingly lessen their profits unless they are forced to do so. Valve's stance is that they abide by consumer laws where they sell games, which is why they need to be tightened up. [EDIT: I'm talking generally here, not specifically about the situation in Australia]

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THis will be abused though. If you can simply return a game within 24 hours you could say play the entire CoD campaign and some multiplayer and then return it. Actually that sounds like a really good idea. It would be like and unofficial demo if you know what I mean and to be honest there are not enough demo's out there that are worth playing.

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Sweet. But, how long has Valve been selling games in Aus? Why hasn't this been brought up earlier?

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Australians are entitled to a refund if a product has a major flaw. Valve refusing to do so, and lying to consumers by saying they have no right to one, is why they being prosecuted.

The easy way for valve to solve this is to put customers'money in escrow for a reasonable time frame before sending it to the game publishers. That way publishers have a big incentive not to release games that are unfinished or are so bugged as to be virtually unplayable.

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They should change this, even EA has figured this out. Where you can return your game within 24 hrs

The difference is that all games on origin are from EA. If valve does this, they have to talk to other publishing companies and that creates a lot of hassle, and the companies probably don't even want to have a refund as an option

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Article For the WAN
 

The ACCC is seeking a raft of penalties against US entertainment software company Valve Corporation over claims it breached consumer laws in Australia. Valve owns and operates an online computer game distribution platform known as ‘Steam’ that has over 65 million users worldwide.

 
 
http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/aap/8898336/accc-left-steaming-over-valve

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THis will be abused though. If you can simply return a game within 24 hours you could say play the entire CoD campaign and some multiplayer and then return it. Actually that sounds like a really good idea. It would be like and unofficial demo if you know what I mean and to be honest there are not enough demo's out there that are worth playing.

 

Maybe games shouldn't be able to be completed within 24 hours then?

 

Or, and I know this will be controversial among publishers: release games that aren't so bad that people want a fucking refund. How about that?

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It give a few more details to anyone who's interested:
The ACCC is the "Australian Competition and Consumer Commission"

The watchdog has filed proceedings against Valve in the Federal Court of Australia alleging it made “false or misleading representations” with regard to consumer guarantees under Australian Consumer Law.
Specifically, the ACCC claims Australian customers of Steam were not entitled to a refund for any games sold by Valve through Steam in any circumstances and that Valve “excluded, restricted or modified” guarantees and warranties that goods would be of acceptable quality.
It also alleges Valve misled customers that its customer guarantees did not apply to games sold by Valve.
“Valve may be an American based company with no physical presence in Australia, but it is carrying on business in Australia by selling to Australian consumers, who are protected by the Australian Consumer Law,” ACCC Chairman Rod Sims said.
“It is a breach of the Australian Consumer Law for businesses to state that they do not give refunds under any circumstances, including for gifts and during sales. “Under the Australian Consumer Law, consumers can insist on a refund or replacement at their option if a product has a major fault.”

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