Building my first PC

[Migit]

Hey guys,

 

I posted here a month ago, maybe a bit longer, looking for ideas on a good build for a new PC for myself.

I got some great help and ideas, now that I actually have a bit of savings behind me, so can really start considering attempting to buy parts and put together a rig. Figured I should return and get the advice a tips I need to make sure I dont screw this up

 

So onto the upgrading stuff. I filled out the why am I upgrading form last time, but I'll repost it just so were all up to date.

 

1. Budget & Location
I'll set the budget at $2500 AUD (im in Australia) but would consider going higher for extra performance. (at the current date, i can push as far as $3100 i think, but with future pay checks, i can continue to upgrade if need be)

2. Aim
This system will be used for playing my Steam library, (Skyrim, Darksouls, Bioshock Infinite, Far Cry 3 etc), as well as games such as League of Legends. I'd also like capabilites to attempt Streaming Gameplay, and possibly video editing for youtube clips. Otherwise, it will just be simple small stuff, (eg/ browsing the internet and watching movies)

3. Monitors
I'd like a Dual monitor set up, maybe with the option to add a 3rd one day (if i ever found a reason to need a 3rd monitor), I dont know heaps about how resolution is rated, but Id like a clear high def image for gaming and watching movies. This area is something I would really like some input on, should I buy just standard 1080p (1980x1080) or bigger to 2560x1080 or 2560x1440 or up again to the new 4k stuff at 3840x2160? Also some monitors are listed as IPS which Im not clear on what that is. And are 3d Monitors always 3d, or a turn on and off thing?

 

3 different monitors that I looked at were:

ASUS VG248QE 24in Widescreen 144Hz 3D Monitor - http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=558_1094&products_id=22711

ASUS PA248Q 24in IPS LED Widescreen Monitor - http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=558_1094&products_id=21119

BenQ XL2411Z 24in LED 144Hz Gaming Monitor - http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=558_1094&products_id=27743

 

Are they worthwhile? should I be looking at something completely different? Thanks. Is 24" average monitor size nowadays? I feel like 27" would be massive (currently on a 14" laptop) so dont have a clue at what size I should be looking at.

4. Peripherals
I'll need a keyboard, any recommendations for gaming and comfortable everyday use? The rest of my peripherals are Razer. (naga mouse, kraken headset etc) Should I keep with them for a keyboard (Ive really liked the stuff I own) or is it not worth the price tag they attach?

And for OS, I've gone for Windows 7, but should I be getting 8.1? to me the tablet like layout seems like it would be annoying on a PC?

5. Why are you upgrading?

I'm upgrading because I currently use a Alienware M14x laptop, I purchased 4-5 years ago now. It's been a great laptop, but now I don't really ever take it from place to place, it's slowing down a bit, and as games are progressing the 3GB GeForce GT 555M in my laptop can no longer play games at max settings without lag/fps drops. I will probably still keep the laptop for convinence, and I love the design and feel of it, im not certain its still upgradeable though (as in can handle newer graphics cards or more RAM etc).

 

 

 

So now the build I'm looking at, its pretty much what was recommended to me last time except I changed the case, made the harddrive bigger, and added, Disc drive and Wireless card.

I understand wireless on a desktop isn't optimal, but with current living situation and location of the PC ethernet cables arent an option. So it'll have to do for now

 

 

PCPartPicker part list - http://au.pcpartpicker.com/p/3n77sY

Price breakdown by merchant - http://au.pcpartpicker.com/p/3n77sY/by_merchant/

CPU - Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor | $392.00 @ PCCaseGear
CPU Cooler - Phanteks PH-TC14PE_BK 78.1 CFM CPU Cooler | $89.00 @ PCCaseGear
Motherboard - ASRock Z87 Extreme4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard | $189.00 @ PLE Computers
Memory - Kingston Fury Black Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 Memory | $189.00 @ Centre Com
Storage - Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive | $139.00 @ Centre Com
Storage - Seagate Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive | $95.00 @ CPL Online
Video Card - XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Double Dissipation Video Card | $569.00 @ PLE Computers
Case - Phanteks Enthoo Luxe ATX Full Tower Case | $179.00 @ PCCaseGear
Power Supply - EVGA 850W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply | $187.00 @ CPL Online
Optical Drive - LG BH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer | $89.00 @ CPL Online
Operating System - Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) | $115.00 @ CPL Online
Wireless Network Adapter - TP-Link TL-WDN4800 802.11a/b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter | $44.00 @ CPL Online

Total
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available | $2276.00

 

Any thoughts on this?, should I be changing anything?, will this build fit in the case?

Also the pick part  website brought up this alert when I finished recreating the list - Some Intel Z87 chipset motherboards may need a BIOS update prior to using Haswell Refresh CPUs.

Is this something I should be concerned about?

 

Also if we think no changes are necessary, can the components and the case hold future upgrades if they're deemed necessary. Eg/ another set of RAM to take it to 32gb, or a second Video Card to run in Crossfire?

 

Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide on build, monitors, keyboards, or even just advice on getting it all together correctly.

 

[TheKDub]

You don't need an i7 for gaming, save yourself a hundred bucks or so and get the i5 4690K, I would also suggest getting a vapor-X or (I forget the name of it, but its the other one of the two) r9 290x instead of the xfx as it does a much better job at cooling, but if you prefer the clean look then stay with xfx.

[Wano97]

You don't need an i7 for gaming, save yourself a hundred bucks or so and get the i5 4690K, I would also suggest getting a vapor-X or (I forget the name of it, but its the other one of the two) r9 290x instead of the xfx as it does a much better job at cooling, but if you prefer the clean look then stay with xfx.

He's going to be rendering, and an i7 on a 2400 AUD build is something you cannot miss out on

And don't you need a z97 mobo for devil's canyon? I'm not quite sure but I thought only asus supports devil's canyon on z87 mobos

Besides that, get a cheaper motherboard and get a 290 instead of a 290x, you can buy another 290 then

The phanteks enthoo pro seems to be better than your current choice aswell and is 80 dollars cheaper

Don't get an optical drive unless you're going to use it often. You can get an external drive aswell if you need one later on and it isn't more expensive

Get a bigger PSU btw if you're going for xfire 290

[XzzDSA]

Monitor input:

24 inch is pretty average, and more than enough for many.
Some prefere 27 inch for more real-estate. But wouldn't recommend getting a 27 inch 1080P display. That resolution gets streched out alot in bigger sized than 23inch / 24inch.

IPS is a type of display panel. Generally this type is concidered to sharper contrasts and deeper colours (which is pretty noticable.)
TN is a another type of display panel. This type is generally seen as the type of display for gaming - mostly because of it's ability for a higher refresh rates than the IPS and other type of displays.
TN also generally have a lower latency, but this is proberly not felt anyways even on an IPS panel.
 

Go to your local electronic store and look at the sizes. Try and sit infront of them and see what you feel is comfortable. Then choose a monitor that otherwise fits your needs.

[TheKDub]

He's going to be rendering, and an i7 on a 2400 AUD build is something you cannot miss out on

 

"and possibly video editing for youtube clips."

 

By the looks of it he may not even do any editing/rendering, so why spend the extra money if you are not sure if you need the extra horsepower.

[Wano97]

"and possibly video editing for youtube clips."

 

By the looks of it he may not even do any editing/rendering, so why spend the extra money if you are not sure if you need the extra horsepower.

Reread my comment. 

[XzzDSA]

Keyboard:

I personally much prefere a mechanical keyboard to a membrane. You really need to try for yourself though.
My own experience with razer is very mixed. Had my Razer Mamba for 3 years and LOVED it. Until it start coming appart.
I had a headset from them which basicly was plastic and broke. There are certainly alternatives to razer, and they are certainly not the only ones charging a premium.

But you can take a look at some steelseries keyboards.

[XzzDSA]

He's going to be rendering, and an i7 on a 2400 AUD build is something you cannot miss out on

And don't you need a z97 mobo for devil's canyon? I'm not quite sure but I thought only asus supports devil's canyon on z87 mobos

Besides that, get a cheaper motherboard and get a 290 instead of a 290x, you can buy another 290 then

The phanteks enthoo pro seems to be better than your current choice aswell and is 80 dollars cheaper

Don't get an optical drive unless you're going to use it often. You can get an external drive aswell if you need one later on and it isn't more expensive

Get a bigger PSU btw if you're going for xfire 290

You don't HAVE to buy an i7 even on a high budget. If you know what you'll be doing, there other places where that money is better spent. That is as true for any high budget system as it is for lower budget ones.

[TheKDub]

Reread my comment. 

 

From what PCPartsPicker has said, z87 boards just require a bios update to support devils canyon, though why go with an older board when you could get z97 which will have more stuff coming for it in the future.

 

I agree that he should get a 290 instead of a 290x as the performance increase is not alot which could easily be reached with a 290 by overclocking.

[XzzDSA]

Windows:

Windows 8 is different.. The modern UI is pretty annoying right off the bat. But if you take your time tweaking it to your liking (and for the love of god, get rid of AAAALLLL of the default APPS....) it's not THAT bad.
Underneath windows 8 is a really good OS. Faster and more effecient than windows 7, and as soon as you close down the modern UI, not that different.
 

And as windows 7 and 8 is the SAME price.. It's pretty much a no-brainer unless you are protesting

[ZacDaMan72]

I'd get an ASUS or Gigabyte motherboard.

[XzzDSA]

CPU - Intel Core i7-4790K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor | $392.00 @ PCCaseGear

CPU Cooler - Phanteks PH-TC14PE_BK 78.1 CFM CPU Cooler | $89.00 @ PCCaseGear

Motherboard - ASRock Z87 Extreme4 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard | $189.00 @ PLE Computers

Memory - Kingston Fury Black Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR3-1866 Memory | $189.00 @ Centre Com

Storage - Samsung 840 EVO 250GB 2.5" Solid State Drive | $139.00 @ Centre Com

Storage - Seagate Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive | $95.00 @ CPL Online

Video Card - XFX Radeon R9 290X 4GB Double Dissipation Video Card | $569.00 @ PLE Computers

Case - Phanteks Enthoo Luxe ATX Full Tower Case | $179.00 @ PCCaseGear

Power Supply - EVGA 850W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply | $187.00 @ CPL Online

Optical Drive - LG BH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer | $89.00 @ CPL Online

Operating System - Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 (OEM) (64-bit) | $115.00 @ CPL Online

Wireless Network Adapter - TP-Link TL-WDN4800 802.11a/b/g/n PCI-Express x1 Wi-Fi Adapter | $44.00 @ CPL Online

Total

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available | $2276.00

 

Concider how much you'll be "editing" and "rendering" videos. If it is just something that you think about doing for fun in the future.. really stick with an i5 and 8gb's of RAM.

Step down from a 290x to a 290.

With the savings and maybe a little extra notch, you may just be able to throw in another 290.

and 2x 290's with an i5 and 8gbs of RAM will destroy any gaming system running a single GPU (depends on the game obviously as you are now running CF).

Plus it looks bad ass having multiple GPUs

To add:

And i5 will NOT perfrom BAD in multithreaded application. It is still a fast CPU.

For streaming an i7 will also have an advantage over the i5. But again, the above statement still remains. you won't have BAD performance. You will have GOOD performance on an i5. Just not AS GOOD as an i7 will provide.

[Wano97]

http://au.pcpartpicker.com/p/vyWvD3

It has Xfire 290's

I didn't include the OS since you can get windows 8.1 64-bit on G2a for MUCH cheaper

As for the keyboard, I'd suggest this one: http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=22094&cPath=257

[Migit]

You don't need an i7 for gaming, save yourself a hundred bucks or so and get the i5 4690K, I would also suggest getting a vapor-X or (I forget the name of it, but its the other one of the two) r9 290x instead of the xfx as it does a much better job at cooling, but if you prefer the clean look then stay with xfx.

 

What is the i7 needed for then? I did aim for a bit of overkill just so I don't need to upgrade often.

 

He's going to be rendering, and an i7 on a 2400 AUD build is something you cannot miss out on

And don't you need a z97 mobo for devil's canyon? I'm not quite sure but I thought only asus supports devil's canyon on z87 mobos

Besides that, get a cheaper motherboard and get a 290 instead of a 290x, you can buy another 290 then

The phanteks enthoo pro seems to be better than your current choice aswell and is 80 dollars cheaper

Don't get an optical drive unless you're going to use it often. You can get an external drive aswell if you need one later on and it isn't more expensive

Get a bigger PSU btw if you're going for xfire 290

 

Im not sure what the devils canyon thing is?

Im a bit naive on all this stuff still

 

The case choice was purely for aesthetics, I like the lighting options

 

Why no optical drive? I assumed it'd just be convenient, and I do like to watch DVDs

 

Monitor input:

24 inch is pretty average, and more than enough for many.

Some prefere 27 inch for more real-estate. But wouldn't recommend getting a 27 inch 1080P display. That resolution gets streched out alot in bigger sized than 23inch / 24inch.

IPS is a type of display panel. Generally this type is concidered to sharper contrasts and deeper colours (which is pretty noticable.)

TN is a another type of display panel. This type is generally seen as the type of display for gaming - mostly because of it's ability for a higher refresh rates than the IPS and other type of displays.

TN also generally have a lower latency, but this is proberly not felt anyways even on an IPS panel.

 

Go to your local electronic store and look at the sizes. Try and sit infront of them and see what you feel is comfortable. Then choose a monitor that otherwise fits your needs.

 

Thanks

 

"and possibly video editing for youtube clips."

 

By the looks of it he may not even do any editing/rendering, so why spend the extra money if you are not sure if you need the extra horsepower.

 

I'd like the option to do it, even if I dont really ever do it

 

Keyboard:

I personally much prefere a mechanical keyboard to a membrane. You really need to try for yourself though.

My own experience with razer is very mixed. Had my Razer Mamba for 3 years and LOVED it. Until it start coming appart.

I had a headset from them which basicly was plastic and broke. There are certainly alternatives to razer, and they are certainly not the only ones charging a premium.

But you can take a look at some steelseries keyboards.

 

I've heard good things about mechanical keyboards, ill have to find one I can try

 

You don't HAVE to buy an i7 even on a high budget. If you know what you'll be doing, there other places where that money is better spent. That is as true for any high budget system as it is for lower budget ones.

 

What would it be better spent on?

 

From what PCPartsPicker has said, z87 boards just require a bios update to support devils canyon, though why go with an older board when you could get z97 which will have more stuff coming for it in the future.

 

I agree that he should get a 290 instead of a 290x as the performance increase is not alot which could easily be reached with a 290 by overclocking.

 

How difficult is overclocking? and cant that cause heating issues?

 

Windows:

Windows 8 is different.. The modern UI is pretty annoying right off the bat. But if you take your time tweaking it to your liking (and for the love of god, get rid of AAAALLLL of the default APPS....) it's not THAT bad.

Underneath windows 8 is a really good OS. Faster and more effecient than windows 7, and as soon as you close down the modern UI, not that different.

 

And as windows 7 and 8 is the SAME price.. It's pretty much a no-brainer unless you are protesting

 

Not protesting, just looks annoying, but maybe ill give it a go

 

I'd get an ASUS or Gigabyte motherboard.

 

Any particular one?

[ZacDaMan72]

@Migit the Gigabyte Z97X-SLI or the Z97X-Gaming 7.

[Wano97]

What is the i7 needed for then? I did aim for a bit of overkill just so I don't need to upgrade often.

 

 

Im not sure what the devils canyon thing is?

Im a bit naive on all this stuff still

 

The case choice was purely for aesthetics, I like the lighting options

 

Why no optical drive? I assumed it'd just be convenient, and I do like to watch DVDs

 

 

Thanks

 

 

I'd like the option to do it, even if I dont really ever do it

 

 

I've heard good things about mechanical keyboards, ill have to find one I can try

 

 

What would it be better spent on?

 

 

How difficult is overclocking? and cant that cause heating issues?

 

 

Not protesting, just looks annoying, but maybe ill give it a go

 

 

Any particular one?

Don't get a 80 dollar drive then, you can probs find one for 20-30 dollars.

Devil's canyon is just the 'codename' for the 4690k and 4790k.

Reread my last comment btw aswell

[TheKDub]

What is the i7 needed for then? I did aim for a bit of overkill just so I don't need to upgrade often.

 

 

Im not sure what the devils canyon thing is?

Im a bit naive on all this stuff still

 

The case choice was purely for aesthetics, I like the lighting options

 

Why no optical drive? I assumed it'd just be convenient, and I do like to watch DVDs

 

 

Thanks

 

 

I'd like the option to do it, even if I dont really ever do it

 

 

I've heard good things about mechanical keyboards, ill have to find one I can try

 

 

What would it be better spent on?

 

 

How difficult is overclocking? and cant that cause heating issues?

 

 

Not protesting, just looks annoying, but maybe ill give it a go

 

 

Any particular one?

 

An i7 is pretty much an i5 but with hyperthreading, which in heavy multitasking, or rendering it helps speed up the process by making the processor more efficient than what it would be without hyperthreading.

 

Games don't get much benefit from hyperthreading, so if you don't plan to be doing tons of video rendering then I'd highly suggest sticking with an i5 and putting the money saved towards something else in your system.

[XzzDSA]

...

I'd like the option to do it, even if I dont really ever do it

The major difference between the i5 4690k and the i7 4790k is the fact that i7 have hyper-threading enabled.

It will improve performance when rendering vidoes and streaming. Though it is not a must. You won't loose any ability to do anything if you decide to go for an i5. You'll still be able to edit and render your videos just fine.

 

I've heard good things about mechanical keyboards, ill have to find one I can try

It's pure subjective wether you like typing on one or not. But one thing is a fact: they are much more reliable.

Defenitly worth the investment if you like the experience.

 

What would it be better spent on?

As I mentioned in my previous post, another GPU.

 

How difficult is overclocking? and cant that cause heating issues?

Not very, though should be taken seriously and make sure you know what you are doing. (read up on it before going crazy).

Basicly when overclocking you just increase one value by small steps, reboot, test for stability. Do it again and again and again. When it gets unstable, increase the voltage a tiny bit until it gets stable.

You keep going like that until you hit a speed that is stable and safe for the CPU that you are happy with.

It WILL cause higher temps and shorter life for your CPU. Though if you do it carefully and don't go balls to the wall. You'll have to switch out your CPU anyways when it finaly dies (if it ever does, as it's an intel LOL).

Not protesting, just looks annoying, but maybe ill give it a go

Defenitly should.

[Migit]

@Migit the Gigabyte Z97X-SLI or the Z97X-Gaming 7.

 

Okay, ill take a look into them thanks

 

Don't get a 80 dollar drive then, you can probs find one for 20-30 dollars.

Devil's canyon is just the 'codename' for the 4690k and 4790k.

Reread my last comment btw aswell

 

Okay, ill look at other disc drives if I decide I want one.

And I'm assuming you meant the part picker one?

 

I know I can google this myself, but if you know the answer I may aswell ask.

Whats the difference in the R9 290 v the 290x? most people have said just get the 290 this time round.

the price difference is only $60-$70 is it not worth the upgrade?

 

An i7 is pretty much an i5 but with hyperthreading, which in heavy multitasking, or rendering it helps speed up the process by making the processor more efficient than what it would be without hyperthreading.

 

Games don't get much benefit from hyperthreading, so if you don't plan to be doing tons of video rendering then I'd highly suggest sticking with an i5 and putting the money saved towards something else in your system.

 

Will gaming need the hyperthreading in the next couple of years though? or is it not an likely option?

Also whats classified as heavy multitasking? im assuming game to 1 screen, internet to another, isnt heavy?

 

I'd like the option to do it, even if I dont really ever do it

The major difference between the i5 4690k and the i7 4790k is the fact that i7 have hyper-threading enabled.

It will improve performance when rendering vidoes and streaming. Though it is not a must. You won't loose any ability to do anything if you decide to go for an i5. You'll still be able to edit and render your videos just fine.

 

I've heard good things about mechanical keyboards, ill have to find one I can try

It's pure subjective wether you like typing on one or not. But one thing is a fact: they are much more reliable.

Defenitly worth the investment if you like the experience.

 

What would it be better spent on?

As I mentioned in my previous post, another GPU.

 

How difficult is overclocking? and cant that cause heating issues?

Not very, though should be taken seriously and make sure you know what you are doing. (read up on it before going crazy).

Basicly when overclocking you just increase one value by small steps, reboot, test for stability. Do it again and again and again. When it gets unstable, increase the voltage a tiny bit until it gets stable.

You keep going like that until you hit a speed that is stable and safe for the CPU that you are happy with.

It WILL cause higher temps and shorter life for your CPU. Though if you do it carefully and don't go balls to the wall. You'll have to switch out your CPU anyways when it finaly dies (if it ever does, as it's an intel LOL).

Not protesting, just looks annoying, but maybe ill give it a go

Defenitly should.

 

Thanks for the tips

[TheKDub]

Okay, ill take a look into them thanks

 

 

Okay, ill look at other disc drives if I decide I want one.

And I'm assuming you meant the part picker one?

 

I know I can google this myself, but if you know the answer I may aswell ask.

Whats the difference in the R9 290 v the 290x? most people have said just get the 290 this time round.

the price difference is only $60-$70 is it not worth the upgrade?

 

 

Will gaming need the hyperthreading in the next couple of years though? or is it not an likely option?

Also whats classified as heavy multitasking? im assuming game to 1 screen, internet to another, isnt heavy?

 

 

Thanks for the tips

 

 

No that wouldn't be heavy multitasking, it would be more like running I don't know... 5 instances of photoshop all at once. (Just an example)

[Migit]

Any tips on monitor choices?

 

And is there a reason people here have recommended the Radeon R9's over a Nvidia GTX product?

Is there much difference between the brands?

[Petrikov96]

Any tips on monitor choices?

 

And is there a reason people here have recommended the Radeon R9's over a Nvidia GTX product?

Is there much difference between the brands?

 

cheaper same performance but put out more heat than Nvidia (sr for bad grammar)

[Migit]

cheaper same performance but put out more heat than Nvidia (sr for bad grammar)

 

which GTX is the equivalent in power to the R9 290 or 290x.

 

I just want to check over all my options, the discusion today, made me feel like i should do more research before committing to this

[Wano97]

which GTX is the equivalent in power to the R9 290 or 290x.

 

I just want to check over all my options, the discusion today, made me feel like i should do more research before committing to this

A gtx 780 is most cases, or more like a sweet spot inbetween the 780 and 780ti

I still would get nvidia, because I like their features. The performance increase between a 290 and 290x is like 5%

To answer that question, gaming won't need hyperthreading as of yet, an i5 will do plenty. Just check out my pcpartpicker link, the best i5 with crossfire 290's, it's not gonna get much better than that.

[Migit]

A gtx 780 is most cases, or more like a sweet spot inbetween the 780 and 780ti

I still would get nvidia, because I like their features. The performance increase between a 290 and 290x is like 5%

To answer that question, gaming won't need hyperthreading as of yet, an i5 will do plenty. Just check out my pcpartpicker link, the best i5 with crossfire 290's, it's not gonna get much better than that.

 

Looking at reviews on youtube for performance across the GTX 780, 780Ti, Titan and R9 290, 290x.

There honestly didnt look like there were any massive performance changes between the 5 cards.

Each game, resolution change effected each card differently, and they swapped between which was the better card AMD or Nvidia

 

I currently use Nvidia and I do love it, its worked perfectly for years, but I'm not sure that the added expense is worth it.

 

I re-did the build you did earlier, just to incorporate the i7 and the case I preferred as seen here:    http://au.pcpartpicker.com/p/rLV9wP

 

Because at the end of the day Im happy to pay the $125 or whatever it is for the CPU upgrade even if I never use the extra resource of the hyper-threading.

I looked into reviews on gaming on both the i5 and i7, running identical hardware, and the i5 does have more FPS drops, yes they were pretty much unnoticeable, but if they're already concurring, it'll just get worse as games progress, so why not just pay $100 now, rather than $300+ later.