NVIDIA Responds to AMD Allegations

[bogus]

MaximumPC delivers :

Did anyone cringed like I did?

[PokémonTrainerFour]

I don't have a link but this is a repost.

[geogga]

Someone TLDR for me

[aom]

Someone TLDR for me

Ikr.

[bogus]

I don't have a link but this is a repost.

Oh sorry, didn't found it in the first page... my bad!

 

Someone TLDR for me

 

Well they avoid some of the points MaximumPC dropped on them, when they touched the Gameworks contracts NVIDIA reached the point where they say something like "AMD lied... well you are free to ask anything to developers... well not anything, ask them:  "do you have access to the gameworks source code?" don't ask them more then that"

Then NVIDIA says they are the only ones who push gaming forward... MaximumPC brought Mantle after they said that, and NVIDIA says there are no real benefits on Mantle, they don't see it so they wont support it, then this happened:

http://youtu.be/aG2kIUerD4c?t=20m59s

Where he basicly said that DirectX12 is receiving features from uh... Mantle, but he doesn't say Mantle ... changes the statement to "it will have the benefits of a low lvl api"... So mantle doesn't have benefits, but DX12 Mantle features are worth supporting. Eh.

They brought the over tesselation on crysis, because the water was being tesselated under the island... and NVIDIA "doesn't remember that was a while ago, maybe was a bug, yadayada"... so yeah, they avoided it and called it a conspiracy.

They wont comment Freesync.

In the middle of all of that its all about "let's go back to this, lets talk this about NVIDIA, we are this good"... they tried to lead the interview the way they wanted. Sad.

[NoobsWeStand]

The hosts of that show struggled to ask a clear question.

They also interrupt each other a lot. I don't know if that is just me, but it gives me a feeling like someone is scratching their nails on a chalkboard

[RexinOridle]

I don't care who cheats or not. As long as their fight makes things cheaper, it's good for me.

[Dietrichw]

I just have to call bullshit as they said that Devs can do what ever they want with gamesworks or PhysX source code they put in their games code but then they later say the Devs cannot let AMD touch those libraries or source code after it is mostly code from Gameworks or PhysX

 

 

That was AMD's complaint, they couldn't optimise parts of the game that used Gameworks or PhysX because NVidia doesn't let Devs share anything that has to do with Gameworks or PhysX with AMD

[bogus]

The hosts of that show struggled to ask a clear question.

They also interrupt each other a lot. I don't know if that is just me, but it gives me a feeling like someone is scratching their nails on a chalkboard

That's what happens when they try to make a more serious journalist work with companys who support them financially... they get in the mid term where they touch some subjects briefly, lose control of the interview by being led by those who are interviewed, and to are afraid of asking questions turning them into awkward cringe momments.

What a shame... those press release kits are precious... gifts, money & stuff.

[Dietrichw]

this is painfull to watch as I can call bullshit on almost everything they say.

AMD is about open standards they threw FreeSync to VESA and I could see AMD helping OpenGL incorporate Mantle.

Nvidia reps try to shit on Mantle then they bow down and kiss DirectX 12's bum, and claim Mantle doesn't need to exist because DirectX 12 will do the same thing right after another guy points out that Mantle is a move to get the DirectX team off their asses

[Derangel]

this is painfull to watch as I can call bullshit on almost everything they say.

AMD is about open standards they threw FreeSync to VESA and I could see AMD helping OpenGL incorporate Mantle.

Nvidia reps try to shit on Mantle then they bow down and kiss DirectX 12's bum, and claim Mantle doesn't need to exist because DirectX 12 will do the same thing right after another guy points out that Mantle is a move to get the DirectX team off their asses

 

Yeah. Though I wonder how AMD PR would react to being asked to discuss the good points of CUDA applications over their own products or to discuss some of their failures. It's typical PR bullshit and it happens in every industry.

[xAcid9]

"The way you meant to be played"

[deathjester]

Seeing the performance drop of peoples videos on youtube in Watch Dogs on r290's with 4 gigs of VRAM well after release, I am going to say Nvidia is full of @$%^. Add to that the game ran like crap on everything so I see no point to the Game Works thing other than creating an artificial separation in performance. It is supposed to get our games more optimized and I would say it is doing a pretty piss poor job.

 

Nvidia might as well pull support from Steam OS with all the MS ass they kiss. Someone might also want to ask Nvidia if DX 12 is so great now, why the hell we have to wait until Holiday 2015 for it. Oh yeah...cus MS wants us to buy a new OS and or buy their crappy console.

 

When API's are two years apart and a 100 dollar OS upgrade away (seeing that the vast majority of PC gamers are still on Win 7), "Mantle not being needed" is an invalid and idiotic statement from Nvidia. 

 

2 years of getting screwed by MS who has prevented us from even getting DirectX 11.2 games, by withholding the API update is not awesome Nvidia. That is WHY Mantle is needed. Support like (below list) this makes it very easy for me to recommend an AMD GPU over an Nvidia GPU for anyone who doesn't have an overclocked I5 or I7. I think it is pretty funny that Nvidia thinks we are all on 4770 k's 4790k's and OC Hexa's though. Nvidia might want to look at the average gaming PC on Steam, cus the majority sure as hell aren't on those CPU's. Nvidia also obviously hasn't played an MMO where my 4770k at 4.5 ghz can sink to 30 fps lows in Guild Wars 2 or Wild Star. 

 

[dragosudeki]

Yeah. Though I wonder how AMD PR would react to being asked to discuss the good points of CUDA applications over their own products or to discuss some of their failures. It's typical PR bullshit and it happens in every industry.

That is sorta true. I think it would just be better to just accept the fact that it is good. In terms of Mantle, Nvidia doesn't really have an answer to it other than wait for DX12. But to deny the fact that DX12 wasn't influenced by Mantle is sorta not a good idea in my opinion. In terms of FreeSync, they could just say that AMD's option may work, but Nvidia's option is more optimized or something. It is not really good PR to deny facts or enforce lies, as we can see how Ubisoft is now always saying their new games look the same PC or console.

That aside, I still think Nvidia should enforce Ubisoft to at least optimize and make the PC ports of the game actually look good. Sorta odd how Ubisoft uses these gameworks, but then the "PC focused game" Watchdogs turned into a game with disabled graphical features.

[jmaster299]

I just have to call bullshit as they said that Devs can do what ever they want with gamesworks or PhysX source code but then they later say the Devs cannot let AMD touch those libraries or source code

 

 

That was AMD's complaint, they couldn't optimise parts of the game that used Gameworks or PhysX because NVidia doesn't let Devs share anything that has to do with Gameworks or PhysX with AMD

AMD has no need, or right, to demand access to Nvidia's source code. AMD lied and claimed their was no source code for Gameworks, and it all works off .dll files. So either Nvidia is being unfair by not giving them access to it, or it doesn't exist, can't be both.

AMD optimizing a game that uses Physx in no way requires AMD to have access to the Physx source code. AMD has never had access to it, yet they have been optimizing games for years that use it. Nvidia offering a package of services under Gameworks changes nothing, because it's all the same stuff that AMD has never had access to in the past, Nvidia is just no longer selling access licenses on a piecemeal basis. 

 

[Sammael]

Aside from the wishy washy talk over amd allegations, I thought this was a great appearance.  I never got the point of shield, but they made a solid case for their tablet aspirations and how they want to expand it to the tv (with a wifi direct controller to boot).

 

You can imagine them using their cloud based rendering to feed content to the tablet hooked into a tv to act as a defacto console, perhaps with better fidelity than the latest consoles (if the latency can really be addressed).  That is their console strategy, to come at it sideways.

 

 

That said, for real gaming, my pc, I think I'll always want my own personal supercomputer.  And since I am still an AMD fanboy, I hope they do well enough to invest in more of their own tech, since nvidia does seem to have a large lead in manpower.

[carolkarine]

AMD has no need, or right, to demand access to Nvidia's source code. AMD lied and claimed their was no source code for Gameworks, and it all works off .dll files. So either Nvidia is being unfair by not giving them access to it, or it doesn't exist, can't be both.

AMD optimizing a game that uses Physx in no way requires AMD to have access to the Physx source code. AMD has never had access to it, yet they have been optimizing games for years that use it. Nvidia offering a package of services under Gameworks changes nothing, because it's all the same stuff that AMD has never had access to in the past, Nvidia is just no longer selling access licenses on a piecemeal basis.

AMD claimed the developer only had the DLLs. Only nvidia had the source code.

[xAcid9]

AMD claimed the developer only had the DLLs. Only nvidia had the source code.

 

AMD claimed they only had the DLLs, the Dev have the source code but they can't share it with AMD because of the "contract". In previous NO BS interview,Richard Huddy challenged Nvidia to reveal if there's nothing in the contract mention the Dev can't share the source code with AMD. I see no contract in that video.

[VulsaviiK]

Ultimately I think the recurring theme I'm seeing here, nVidia is a company, and their endgame goal, is to sell their product. And if they do that by having exclusive things like PhysX, then so be it.

 

AMD have Mantle, and talked about it being "open", like they said. But at this point in time, DX12 is going to come along, as an open standard, long before we see Mantle on nVidia cards.

 

If nVidia claimed that they were going to make PhysX and Gameworks open, "at some point", would people be happier then?

[Notional]

Maximum PC did not do a good job of representing Huddy's points. It was however interesting to see nVidia proving some of his points:

 

• AMD cannot gain access to Gameworks sourcecode, therefore it is not really possible for AMD to optimize their drivers for GameWorks effects.
• We don't really know what the Nvidia/gamedevs contracts are about, but I think we can safely assume, that game devs are contractually obliged to NOT disclose GameWorks sourcecode to AMD, when optimizing gamecode for AMD, or getting helped by AMD to do so. This is probably what Huddy talked about, as anything else would be defined as antitrust, which would make AMD sue Nvidia.

So for the GameWorks problem, Huddy does still seem to have the long end of the stick.

[Sammael]

Ultimately I think the recurring theme I'm seeing here, nVidia is a company, and their endgame goal, is to sell their product. And if they do that by having exclusive things like PhysX, then so be it.

 

AMD have Mantle, and talked about it being "open", like they said. But at this point in time, DX12 is going to come along, as an open standard, long before we see Mantle on nVidia cards.

 

If nVidia claimed that they were going to make PhysX and Gameworks open, "at some point", would people be happier then?

 

 

One thing I found kind of hilarious was how Rev was downplaying mantle and the entire point of it now that dx12 was around the corner.  Then later on when talking about their continued support of cuda over opencl he basically gave the argument for continued support for mantle even though dx12 would be a more open standard (even if amd opens it up, THEY control its direction).

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aG2kIUerD4c#t=41m

 

and I quote:

 

Rev : Us owning Cuda, lets us innovate in ways that we couldn't otherwise if we had to wait for a standards body to approve some things

 

 

DING DING DING !!!!!!!

 

THAT is why I think amd will continue to support mantle, that will be their testing box for new tech and new rendering capabilities, where they will not have to wait for microsoft and dx12 or dx13 to come along and push forward.

[Dietrichw]

Ultimately I think the recurring theme I'm seeing here, nVidia is a company, and their endgame goal, is to sell their product. And if they do that by having exclusive things like PhysX, then so be it.

 

AMD have Mantle, and talked about it being "open", like they said. But at this point in time, DX12 is going to come along, as an open standard, long before we see Mantle on nVidia cards.

 

If nVidia claimed that they were going to make PhysX and Gameworks open, "at some point", would people be happier then?

DirectX can not be an open standard since it is for Microsoft products only, OpenGL is open as it can run on Windows, Playstation, Nintendo systems, Linux, iOS, Android, Mac OS, or wherever you want to add it for free. 

[VulsaviiK]

I dunno, I didn't watch the whole thing, because, TLDR. This point however

 

"What are we being asked to do here? To not create things, so that our competitors can't cry foul that we have an advantage?" (http://youtu.be/aG2kIUerD4c?t=43m27s)

 

So, because AMD is struggling to keep up with nVidia, that's nVidias fault right?

 

Personally, I think AMD need to shut the hell up. For years, they've made bold claims everytime they have a big launch coming up, be it a CPU or GPU, and it falls short of what they claim

 

 

• AMD cannot gain access to Gameworks sourcecode, therefore it is not really possible for AMD to optimize their drivers for GameWorks effects.
• We don't really know what the Nvidia/gamedevs contracts are about, but I think we can safely assume, that game devs are contractually obliged to NOT disclose GameWorks sourcecode to AMD, when optimizing gamecode for AMD, or getting helped by AMD to do so. This is probably what Huddy talked about, as anything else would be defined as antitrust, which would make AMD sue Nvidia.

 

So what are you saying here? Should nVidia turn over all of their hard work, that they invested money into, just to keep AMD and AMD customers happy?

 

DirectX can not be an open standard since it is for Microsoft products only, OpenGL is open as it can run on Windows, Playstation, Nintendo systems, Linux, iOS, Android, Mac OS, or wherever you want to add it for free. 

 

My bad. The point I was getting at is that, unlike Mantle, DX works regardless of whether you have an nvidia or amd gpu

[eshbop]

The interviewers asked the wrong questions which allowed the Nvidia guys to dodge the real issues AMD were raising. They should have gone and watched their own interview with Richard Huddy before they went into this one.

 

It was never about AMD having access to Gameworks source code, but game devs having access to it so they could better optimize their game for all hardware. It's public record that serveral devs expressed concern over this.

 

The interviewers didn't do a very good job at representing AMDs position and the Nvidia guys took them for a ride.

[SpaghettiCarbonara]

I dunno, I didn't watch the whole thing, because, TLDR. This point however

 

"What are we being asked to do here? To not create things, so that our competitors can't cry foul that we have an advantage?" (http://youtu.be/aG2kIUerD4c?t=43m27s)

 

So, because AMD is struggling to keep up with nVidia, that's nVidias fault right?

 

Personally, I think AMD need to shut the hell up. For years, they've made bold claims everytime they have a big launch coming up, be it a CPU or GPU, and it falls short of what they claim

 

So what are you saying here? Should nVidia turn over all of their hard work, that they invested money into, just to keep AMD and AMD customers happy?

 

My bad. The point I was getting at is that, unlike Mantle, DX works regardless of whether you have an nvidia or amd gpu

 

 

""What are we being asked to do here? To not create things, so that our competitors can't cry foul that we have an advantage?""

 

(To Nvidia) Nope, just let your competition do what they need to do to give their customers a fair go.

 

 

So, because AMD is struggling to keep up with nVidia, that's nVidias fault right?

 

AMD isn't struggling to keep up with Nvidia at all. They're different companies with different long term goals and internal values. I think you'll find AMD pretty much owns most of the low-end market, just look at the consoles and lower-end processing and graphics processing, AMD is all over that.

 

 

"Personally, I think AMD need to shut the hell up."

 

If Nvidia is trying to handicap AMD in any way, AMD should make a lot of noise. Monopolies are bad for the industry.

 

"For years, they've made bold claims everytime they have a big launch coming up, be it a CPU or GPU, and it falls short of what they claim"

 

Falls short? I wouldn't say that. Look at the R9 290. Sure, it runs hotter, but it's significantly cheaper than the Nvidia equivalent (GTX 780) and performs just as good on average. Here in Australia, the R9 290 is priced between the GTX 770 (the price is juuuust a bit more, even with the 770's price being all over the place) and the GTX 780. It easily out-performs the 770 and performs equally with the 780, even better in most cases with higher resolutions (>1440p).

 

AMD cards are great for value. Just off the top of my head, cards like the HD 7950 (R9 280), the HD 7870 (R9 270x) have always been considered to be great value cards, along with the R9 290, as I've already stated. I'm pretty sure cards like the R9 270, R7 265 and the R7 260x are considered to be great value. On the super high-end, we've got the R9 295x2, which is competing with the Titan Z as dual GPU cards. AMD's card is literally half the price, runs cooler, runs quieter and performs better.

 

 

"So what are you saying here? Should nVidia turn over all of their hard work, that they invested money into, just to keep AMD and AMD customers happy?"

 

No, not to make anyone happy, but for the industry. Competition is good, but handicapping competitors is bad for any industry. Nvidia seems to want to move into a position of monopoly, which is terrible for us consumers. Might I remind you that it costs AMD money to optimise their drivers for games for their hardware too, so saying "that they invested money into," is kind of irrelevant, since both parties are doing that in this scenario.

 

 

"My bad. The point I was getting at is that, unlike Mantle, DX works regardless of whether you have an nvidia or amd gpu"

 

If AMD gets their way, Mantle will work on everything. They've said this countless times. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.